Ron Santo - finally a HOFer

[madducks]

So who is now the best player not in the HoF?

J

Shoeless Joe Jackson

[onejayhawk]

Shoeless Joe Jackson

Scooped.

If you go that route, Joe Jackson. I should have said eligible player.


I would have thought Whitaker before Trammell or Grich.

J

Whitaker won a GG and Frank White won the other nine. Watching them play, I always thought Whitaker was better than Trammel.

J

[Mithrandir]

Santo is no a HOF'er..not really close. Outside of his fans why would anyone think he deserves the HOF?

[onejayhawk]

Santo is no a HOF'er..not really close. Outside of his fans why would anyone think he deserves the HOF?

Anyone who looks closely will see it.

J

[Judge Jude]

If you can name 10 3B with a better prime (10 years) than Santo, I'll concede that point, Mith.
If you can't.....

Schmidt was better.
And Mathews, Brett, Boggs, probably Home Run Baker.
Hall of Merit had Negro Leaguer Jud Wilson barely nosing him out.
Molitor and Dick Allen, not quite, we said, but it's a fair debate (keeping in mind their stints at less valuable position and their lesser defense when they did play 3B).
Brooks Robinson was an even better fielder than Santo, but he rarely was a top hitter.
Jimmy Collins was a top 3B 100 years ago.

Do you think fewer than 10 3B should be in the Hall of Fame?

"Watching them play, I always thought Whitaker was better than Trammel."

Look closer. Stellar SS vs less-stellar 2B, per fielding.

[Bob Kohm]

Do you think fewer than 10 3B should be in the Hall of Fame?

While I agree that Santo belongs, that is a garbage question. I wasn't aware that we were running an affirmative action plan for underrepresented positions in the Hall rather than simply basing it on (and here's a loaded word...) merit.

[Mithrandir]

Anyone who looks closely will see it.

J

I did look closely and don't see it. Please tell me what makes him HOF worthy?

I didn't get to see him play so maybe that might make a difference, but looking at his stats he doesn't look that great.

[onejayhawk]

I beg to differ about Trammel being a better glove than Whitaker, though I will admit LW's defense full off from his mid 1980s high point. Still 3 GG is 3 GG. And Whitaker played his early career in the same league as the best defensive 2B ever. Ozzie was in the other league, so the comparisons to Trammell are not as quick.

All that being said, Whitaker, Trammell, Larkin, and Grich are all 50/50 kind of guys. None of them screams injustice like Santo did.

J

[onejayhawk]

I did look closely and don't see it. Please tell me what makes him HOF worthy?

I didn't get to see him play so maybe that might make a difference, but looking at his stats he doesn't look that great.

If you check the dates, you will see that he played his career in the worst offensive period of the last 90 years. That has a big bearing on the stats. You have to go pre Black Sox to fin worse. Glovewise, he was a SS playing 3B, attested by 5 GG. He was the premier hitting 3B of his day, though it was before Silver Slugger. Suffice to say that SABR people have been agitating for decades to get him inducted.

J

[Judge Jude]

Santo averaged 161 games per season from 1961-69, then 154 games in 1970-71. That's just one subtle plus - he not only was very good, he was there every night (or in his case, day).

A 5-time Gold Glove winner after having to wait a number of years for Ken Boyer - another of the all-time great fielders at 3B - to get old.
At his peak - 1964-67 - he finishes 2nd, 5th, 4th and 7th in OPS+. Think about that: you have an outstanding fielder at a key position who never misses a game (we'll ignore the fact that he had diabetes and played 81 home day games), and is one of the best hitters in the league.

In 1964, Willie Mays leads the league in OPS+. Also in the top 10 are HOFers FRobinson, Aaron, Cepeda, BWilliams and Clemente (and Torre, who arguably belongs there as a player alone). He kept battling a similar crew each year.

Santo's prime? From 1963-72, he's 128 OPS+ or better 8 times (and none below 109). Durable, excellent fielder who outhits his 3B rivals as well.

He played 2,130 games at 3B (in only 15 years) - 8th most all-time, and he's 5th in assists.

125 career OPS+
127s include Bill Dickey and Rickey Henderson (and Youkilis)
126s include Johnny Bench and Wee Willie Keeler
125s include Yogi Berra (and Bernie Williams)
124s include Bonilla, Puckett, Sisler

Tough to find any 3Bs in this range. There's Bill Madlock at 123, but in almost 3 seasons fewer games
(Rolen is a 123 in 300 fewer games, but at this pt the closer he gets in games, the more likely the rate slides with it. And Rolen is VERY underrated).

The Hall of Merit folks are going year by year to rate the best players in baseball; they started this summer with 1961 and are going forward.
Santo was voted the 3rd best player in all of baseball in 1964. And 4th in 1965, and 6th in 1966. I'll think he'll get 2nd (behind unanimous choice Yaz) when we finish the 1967 voting this month (yes, it's kind of a slow process).

[chancellor]

While I agree that Santo belongs, that is a garbage question. I wasn't aware that we were running an affirmative action plan for underrepresented positions in the Hall rather than simply basing it on (and here's a loaded word...) merit.

Hey, Moonlight - someone stole Kohm's user ID and password, because he can't have said something I completely agree with.

[Erik]

The pizza thread is a good place to check if you want to disagree with him.