Originally posted by Judge Jude
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Official *MLB Season Delayed* Thread
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Originally posted by Ken View PostYou don't see bad faith there?
You and I are haggling on the price of a car, we go back and forth - and your offers are terrible - and finally I say, "fine I'll take the original offer we discussed, you just write up the paperwork and get me the keys", when what I really mean is "I'm just waiting for you to hand over paperwork so I can hand it to my lawyers to sue you". You don't think that's bad faith?
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Originally posted by cavebird View PostAnyone who was paying attention knew they would file a grievance in that circumstance; it is not like they ever denied it.
Originally posted by cavebird View PostAlso, it very much isn't like buying a car. The car dealership can't impose a deal on you within certain parameters with your only recompense being to file a grievance---you can just walk away.
Originally posted by cavebird View PostBut if you want to go with a car sales analogy, here is how I see it in a car sales analogy. The MLBPA goes into a used car dealership looking to buy a car that is worth about $7,500. The dealership offers it at $10,000 with 0% interest. Annoyed, the buyer (MLBPA), says, okay, $5,000 in cash (this is the 114-game offer). The dealer counters with an offer of $9,500 with a 3% interest rate, which comes out to close to the same thing as the first offer. The buyer, wanting to move negotiations on, makes a real move and offers $6,250 (this is the 89-game offer). The dealership counters with $9,000 and 7% interest. Buyer says screw it and walks away. Dealer, afraid of losing the sale, comes running out and offers $8,500 with 0% interest (current MLB offer). Now, the question is what the MLBPA will do.
But sure, I don't disagree that the owners offers were bad and they operated in bad faith. I've said that previously in this thread.
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Originally posted by cavebird View PostOf course they care---if they weren't getting smoked on that count, Manfred doesn't fly out to meet Clark. If it was going the other way around, Clark flied to NYC.
"so the players wanted 114 games and the owners wanted 48 - and if there are 60 to 66, and with the expanded playoffs the owners mainly wanted, and if they don't have to open the books, then the players won.
got it."finished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84
SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
C Stallings 2, Casali 1
1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1
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Originally posted by cavebird View PostAnd no, especially when they tell the dealership that they intend to do that--which they did. While they didn't tweet it, MLB definitely knew it. MLBPA decided that MLB wasn't negotiating in good faith (probably because the offers never really got better), and said, we'll argue it to the arbitrator, just impose what you want. That isn't bad faith negotiations, that's just giving up on negotiations.
I'll say it again, I really think this needs to get done by Fathers Day.
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Originally posted by Judge Jude View Postyou forgot to respond to this part:
"so the players wanted 114 games and the owners wanted 48 - and if there are 60 to 66, and with the expanded playoffs the owners mainly wanted, and if they don't have to open the books, then the players won.
got it."
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Originally posted by KnuckleBalls View PostExactly!!!! In my opinion this IS negotiating in good faith. In a negotiation that was clearly being delayed by the owners to get it closer to the 50 games without "imposing" a season, Clark called "bullshit". This is a common way to force a conclusion to negotiations going nowhere. It put the ball in owners court and it looks like it may work. I hope anyway. As for misleading the public, it was clear to me what "tell us where and when meant". It was very clear to the owners what it meant.
I'll say it again, I really think this needs to get done by Fathers Day.
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Originally posted by Ken View PostIsn't that just called negotiation? If you want me to give you $100 for something and I only want to give $50, I'm going to offer $30, not $50. 114 was negotiation number.finished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84
SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
C Stallings 2, Casali 1
1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1
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Don't get me wrong Ken. I do think they are both at fault. I just think that the Clark statement finally put an end to the bullshit to get this thing going. Believe me, I may offer Snell for 10 cents on the dollar for his duecebgag comments. Trying to get millionaires and Billionaires to see through our eyes is futile so I am just going with the latest common sense negotiation ploy.
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My interpretation of the "Tell us where and when" statement was "since you don't want to budge and this is going nowhere, just do what you want to do, but know we are not gonna be happy about it and we are gonna make you pay later." That second implicit bit is what got the owners finally moving. If the owners thought it meant, "you know what, we don't care anymore, we are cool, just tell us when we will play, thanks" there is no way they would have budged from their initial proposal. That may not be what the casual observer would have read into, though.
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Originally posted by Sour Masher View PostMy interpretation of the "Tell us where and when" statement was "since you don't want to budge and this is going nowhere, just do what you want to do, but know we are not gonna be happy about it and we are gonna make you pay later." That second implicit bit is what got the owners finally moving. If the owners thought it mean, "you know what, we don't care anymore, we are cool, just tell us when we will play, thanks" there is no way they would have budged from their initial proposal.
That may not be what the casual observer would have read into, though.If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
- Terence McKenna
Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)
How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige
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I think a point of confusion here now though is the assumption that players might now hold out or delay or not play. That is not my take on it. My take is that the owners want new things. They want expanded playoffs and no grievances. Those are not what the players had agreed to when they said "let's just play." I believe the players would go and play 48 right now if the owners didn't demand those two things.
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Originally posted by Sour Masher View PostI think a point of confusion here now though is the assumption that players might now hold out or delay or not play. That is not my take on it. My take is that the owners want new things. They want expanded playoffs and no grievances. Those are not what the players had agreed to when they said "let's just play." I believe the players would go and play 48 right now if the owners didn't demand those two things.It certainly feels that way. But I'm distrustful of that feeling and am curious about evidence.
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Eric Fisher spent decades working for Sports Journal, yet clearly he needs to be educated by RJ Bullpen:
Eric Fisher
@EricFisherSBG
· 39m
Time has been an enemy of this whole thing, and there's really not room anymore to even contemplate the 114 games in the union's original proposal. But between that offer and this latest one, the union has shaved more than a billion dollars in total player compensation.
Eric Fisher
@EricFisherSBG
·
23m
In guaranteed money, the owners’s total rise is more in $200 million rangefinished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84
SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
C Stallings 2, Casali 1
1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1
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