Bonds Found Guilty...

[OaklandA's]

Please correct me if I'm wrong and clearly state your position on this as I believe I've made mine crystal clear.

What I am saying is that your argument would be more persuasive is you supported it with facts.

Here is what I believe - Bonds was using "The Cream" and the "Clear" in the early part of the decade. Since these were not steroids, but a new type of PED, he may not have not believed he was taking steroids or something illegal. I said "may", because all of the testimony showed that there was no evidence to show that he knew he was taking steroids or HGH - that was the whole point of the Federal prosecution. These drugs developed by Balco were too new to even be classified.

I also believe that he probably stopped taking these PEDs once Balco was shut down and the investigations and drug testing started closing on on him. If he didn't stop, he has an awful lot of guts. Yet he still slugged .812 in 2004, and had an OPS of around 1.000 every year until 2007. So saying that his performance was significantly due to the PEDs isn't quite right - he was probably the best player in the Majors from 1992-1998 and even after 2004, he was still one of the top hitters, even after the age of 40.

[Judge Jude]

Well, a few things about "old Bonds":

- his walk totals are so preposterous that I think he muddies OPS+. Most sluggers have a certain balance of walks (more than average) to hits. The best ones, a different balance. His was just silly.

- some of the discrepancy is from pitchers who may, per your note, have not realized he wasn't as 'bionic' as before, so they walked him anyway.

- Bonds really did have a great eye, imo. But just as NBA superstars get the close calls when driving the lane and 'control freaks' like Maddux and Glavine got the borderline pitches, a ball tended to be whatever Barry didn't feel like swinging at, to an extent.

2006 Barry had 99 hits and 115 walks. And it's not like he was zipping around the bases - he stole all of 3 that year. A 156 OPS+ feels a little off-kilter, though that's the number.

[chancellor]

What I am saying is that your argument would be more persuasive is you supported it with facts.

Here is what I believe - Bonds was using "The Cream" and the "Clear" in the early part of the decade. Since these were not steroids, but a new type of PED, he may not have not believed he was taking steroids or something illegal. I said "may", because all of the testimony showed that there was no evidence to show that he knew he was taking steroids or HGH - that was the whole point of the Federal prosecution. These drugs developed by Balco were too new to even be classified.

I also believe that he probably stopped taking these PEDs once Balco was shut down and the investigations and drug testing started closing on on him. If he didn't stop, he has an awful lot of guts. Yet he still slugged .812 in 2004, and had an OPS of around 1.000 every year until 2007. So saying that his performance was significantly due to the PEDs isn't quite right - he was probably the best player in the Majors from 1992-1998 and even after 2004, he was still one of the top hitters, even after the age of 40.

Just for clarification, "The Cream" was most definitely a steroid - in fact, it was simply a combination of testosterone and epitestosterone. The brilliance of Conte's combination is it increased testosterone to max borderline levels while keeping epitestosterone equally high - invalidating the primary test method of the time, which was to check the test:epi ratio.

Other than that, carry on. You raise an interesting viewpoint.

[GwynnInTheHall]

What I am saying is that your argument would be more persuasive is you supported it with facts.

Here is what I believe - Bonds was using "The Cream" and the "Clear" in the early part of the decade. Since these were not steroids, but a new type of PED, he may not have not believed he was taking steroids or something illegal. I said "may", because all of the testimony showed that there was no evidence to show that he knew he was taking steroids or HGH - that was the whole point of the Federal prosecution. These drugs developed by Balco were too new to even be classified.

I also believe that he probably stopped taking these PEDs once Balco was shut down and the investigations and drug testing started closing on on him. If he didn't stop, he has an awful lot of guts. Yet he still slugged .812 in 2004, and had an OPS of around 1.000 every year until 2007. So saying that his performance was significantly due to the PEDs isn't quite right - he was probably the best player in the Majors from 1992-1998 and even after 2004, he was still one of the top hitters, even after the age of 40.

OK I get it with you and Barry.


I hope you don't conduct the rest of your life like you base your belief system around Bonds and his guilt/innocence because if you do-- you're ****ed.

Enjoy being one of the few Bonds fans still blithely dancing in the folly of his presumed ignorance/innocence.

If you take that to mean I'm name calling-- I am-- if you believe he didn't knowingly take steroids-- your gullible at the very least, willfully ignorant at your worst.

[chancellor]

I hope you don't conduct the rest of your life like you base your belief system around Bonds and his guilt/innocence because if you do-- you're ****ed.

Whooooaaaa...easy, fella.

I don't agree with Oakland A's here, but this is way, way overboard harsh. C'mon, man, it's not like he's throwing Bonds opponents out the back of his SUV or anything.

[Fresno Bob]

OK I get it with you and Barry.


I hope you don't conduct the rest of your life like you base your belief system around Bonds and his guilt/innocence because if you do-- you're ****ed.

Enjoy being one of the few Bonds fans still blithely dancing in the folly of his presumed ignorance/innocence.

If you take that to mean I'm name calling-- I am-- if you believe he didn't knowingly take steroids-- your gullible at the very least, willfully ignorant at your worst.

I believe Bonds took steroids/hgh, as I'd bet that 50%+ of closers he faced did as well. I also believe that Bonds was the best hitter of the last 20 years. There is absolutely no way to know who did and who did not use steroids/hgh, which is why I still think we need to declare this time "The Steroid Era" and just move on.

[Hornsby]

I believe Bonds took steroids/hgh, as I'd bet that 50%+ of closers he faced did as well. I also believe that Bonds was the best hitter of the last 20 years. There is absolutely no way to know who did and who did not use steroids/hgh, which is why I still think we need to declare this time "The Steroid Era" and just move on.

Here's the problem that I have with that approach...we KNOW that Bonds took steroids, and other PEDS. The question (and it's not much of a question in my mind) is whether he took them knowingly. Now the Bonds defenders here want everyone to give Bonds the benefit of the doubt, and point to the lack of a guilty verdict as some sort of proof. But the same people seem to be more than willing to just cast a shadow over everyone...innocent included, to give Bonds a pass. That just doesn't wash for me.

To call it the steroid era, and claim that 50+ or more were using is just not fair to those who never took a shot, or ingested a PED in their lives.

[Lucky]

I thought some about this thread. During the latter years, Bonds set up closer to the plate than anyone I can think of...actually hanging over the plate at times. It wasn't steroids that allowed him to do this. It was body armor. He had a superb eye, that was probably enhanced by a) some pitchers being afraid of him, and b) him getting the benefit of the doubt by the umps in most situations. Steroids would have nothing to do with that. He also had an amazingly short, quick swing, which generated tremendous bat speed through the zone. Steroids didn't give him a beautifully compact stroke.

You could say that people who crowd the plate shouldn't get to wear so much protective gear, or that umpires shouldn't give the stars breaks, but neither of these things have anything to do with steroids.

Did steroids help him play longer and recover more quickly and give him a little more strength? Yeah, but as someone may have mentioned, those home runs weren't wall scrapers. They were gone.

So, even without PEDs, I'm guessing that he would have been an elite hitter, maybe without peer. Maybe that's even more reason for regret.

I guess I'm saying that he would have been awesome even without any help, maybe not quite as good or consistent, but still awesome.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Whooooaaaa...easy, fella.

I don't agree with Oakland A's here, but this is way, way overboard harsh. C'mon, man, it's not like he's throwing Bonds opponents out the back of his SUV or anything.

I guess I just never will understand how people maintain a position in the face of overwhelming common sense. I really hope A's is just being a fanboy and that he wouldn't give some other individual of questionable integrity not only the benefit of the doubt, but close access to his life.

I don't think I said anything harsh at all--

[GwynnInTheHall]

I believe Bonds took steroids/hgh, as I'd bet that 50%+ of closers he faced did as well. I also believe that Bonds was the best hitter of the last 20 years. There is absolutely no way to know who did and who did not use steroids/hgh, which is why I still think we need to declare this time "The Steroid Era" and just move on.

Which would be fine if the Players in question would also just admit it and move on. but they have to lie about it, which makes it an issue.

[Fresno Bob]

Which would be fine if the Players in question would also just admit it and move on. but they have to lie about it, which makes it an issue.

If South Africa can declare an Amensty and Reconcilliation around aparthied, I'd hope MLB could do the same around steriods/PEDs/speed and just move on. I'd love for every player to come clean. As I've said many times, if I was in the MLB, I'd be doing steroids/HGH if only to be able to push my body at peak performance for as long as I absolutely could.

This is what I think was the greatest benefit to Bonds, it allowed him maximum time on the field while he was at his baseball peak. I also agree with the incredible advantage Bonds had by combining his bat speed, eye and body armor.

[GwynnInTheHall]

If South Africa can declare an Amensty and Reconcilliation around aparthied, I'd hope MLB could do the same around steriods/PEDs/speed and just move on. I'd love for every player to come clean. As I've said many times, if I was in the MLB, I'd be doing steroids/HGH if only to be able to push my body at peak performance for as long as I absolutely could.

This is what I think was the greatest benefit to Bonds, it allowed him maximum time on the field while he was at his baseball peak. I also agree with the incredible advantage Bonds had by combining his bat speed, eye and body armor.

This is pretty much my life's philosophy. We all make bad choices, but if you come clean--I can recognize your contrition and wish you well on your way. BUT, if you refuse to admit transgressions or are less than contrite, i wish you all the **** life can deal you.

It may not the most acceptable way of looking at life to some of you, but I'm just not ever going to stop wishing bad things upon bad people.

[The Dane]

...bad things upon bad people.

Be careful there. The karmic ramifications of a simple mistake on your part could be harsh. Are you so convinced that Bonds is a "bad" person that you would suffer the punishment for his sins if you were wrong?

[GwynnInTheHall]

Be careful there. The karmic ramifications of a simple mistake on your part could be harsh. Are you so convinced that Bonds is a "bad" person that you would suffer the punishment for his sins if you were wrong?

I'm convinced he lied about both his steroid use (which has been proven) and his knowingly taking said steroids. And yeah-- I'll stack my karmic ramifications up with anyone's. I've made many bad choices over my life time and have gone far out of my way to admit and try to apologize for each and every one. Now it's just a matter of doing it daily, which is surprisingly easy. the truth may hurt on occasion, but it's far less painful than lying is in the long run.