Bonds Found Guilty...

[The Dane]

Maybe it is because he broke some of the most treasured power records of my favorite game that I take issue with him specifically, but all users in general. He is THE lightening rod of PED's in baseball, with clemens a close second, no?

Fair enough. It's hard to deny that Bonds is the lightning rod, but I would argue that focusing all our heat at Bonds serves no purpose beyond some eventual and regretful self-flagellation. Him being the focus of the issue absolutely distracts us from the truth of the situation.

[GwynnInTheHall]

If you go back to my original post

I'm just kind of surprised more people don't want to see another cheating, lying celebrity get his ass handed to him. He used steroids which should keep him out of the hall (and it will). Then he lied about it and in the process basically told all of us we're too stupid to know he's lying or that he doesn't care if we know he's lied. I like to see those kind of A Holes punished.

I hope they stick his ass in jail.

you'll notice I never said I thought he should be kept out of the Hall for Steroid use only that the use itself should(will) keep him out. That's It (the usage) should, not I Think it should. Just to clarify, I think his Steroid use was disappointing and unnecessary, I recognize the fact that usage was widespread.

My issue with Bonds is that he has lied to us and defiantly continues to act as though he's above the truth and the law. the same arrogance that made him a pariah in the press he now aims at the rest of the world. I'm Barry ****ing Bonds and you all can eat my ****--he's lying and laughing in our faces as he does it. THIS is what I take issue with.

You've never heard me go off on Giambi or Canseco about Steroids, only the liars like Bonds and Clemens.

[chancellor]

The problem Dane, is that no one posting here actually watched Bonds play a game. At least that's what I can gather from their blind assumptions. Anyone who watched Bonds at the plate in the latter part of his career should know that his batting eye was almost unhuman. I've never seen a player decide before a pitch was even thrown whether or not he was even going to start his swing. He was so locked in, maybe he was taking adderall, but it wasn't steroids giving him that concentration.

I watched Bonds play more times than I can count. One of the great mysteries with 'roid use has been the claim by many that it improved their vision and that they could see the ball much better. I'm not aware of any solid medical studies that back this. and maybe it was a placebo effect. But Bonds and many others did talk about their improved ability to see the ball.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I watched Bonds play more times than I can count. One of the great mysteries with 'roid use has been the claim by many that it improved their vision and that they could see the ball much better. I'm not aware of any solid medical studies that back this. and maybe it was a placebo effect. But Bonds and many others did talk about their improved ability to see the ball.

I know for a fact steroids don't help improve vision. the eyes are a very complex organ. Roids can be used in slowing the degradation of the retina, but they don't heal or improve vision. It's an unfortunate fact.

[The Dane]

I know for a fact steroids don't help improve vision. the eyes are a very complex organ. Roids can be used in slowing the degradation of the retina, but they don't heal or improve vision. It's an unfortunate fact.

I don't know. Maybe if you guys did more steroids you would see what I've been trying to argue here.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I don't know. Maybe if you guys did more steroids you would see what I've been trying to argue here.

I do know, as the mother of my kids has Retinitis Pigmentosa (she's going blind slowly) and at the beginning was taking steroids to slow the degradation. At which time the intricacies of the eye were explained and the effects of steroids on vision as well. Steroids don;t help you see better. Period.

[Cobain's Ghost]

I watched Bonds play more times than I can count. One of the great mysteries with 'roid use has been the claim by many that it improved their vision and that they could see the ball much better. I'm not aware of any solid medical studies that back this. and maybe it was a placebo effect. But Bonds and many others did talk about their improved ability to see the ball.

supposedly true of hgh, but i can't find much in the way of solid research to back that up.

[Hammer]

If you go back to my original post



you'll notice I never said I thought he should be kept out of the Hall for Steroid use only that the use itself should(will) keep him out. That's It (the usage) should, not I Think it should. Just to clarify, I think his Steroid use was disappointing and unnecessary, I recognize the fact that usage was widespread.

My issue with Bonds is that he has lied to us and defiantly continues to act as though he's above the truth and the law. the same arrogance that made him a pariah in the press he now aims at the rest of the world. I'm Barry ****ing Bonds and you all can eat my ****--he's lying and laughing in our faces as he does it. THIS is what I take issue with.

You've never heard me go off on Giambi or Canseco about Steroids, only the liars like Bonds and Clemens.

Thats my feeling as well.

[ThatRogue]

I watched Bonds play more times than I can count. One of the great mysteries with 'roid use has been the claim by many that it improved their vision and that they could see the ball much better. I'm not aware of any solid medical studies that back this. and maybe it was a placebo effect. But Bonds and many others did talk about their improved ability to see the ball.

Well, I'm fairly certain that Bonds did not discuss anything about steroids or HGH improving his ability to see the ball, considering that he has always denied taking them knowingly.

[Lucky]

I'm not really arguing with anything you wrote here. I just see a vicious slope being constructed. I have a real hard time pinning it all on Bonds. He didn't do ALL the steroids by himself. We all KNOW other players used, even those who have never previously been linked to steroids. Look at how painful it has been over the years to see our heroes tumble. Making Bonds the sacrificial scapegoat is false salve to our wounds. Sure, in the short term, we feel better. We've punished the bad cheater and rewarded those who didn't cheat. Bad Barry! You ruined the game. Good Griffey! You did it the right way. But, the way I see it, the dominoes haven't finished falling, and when they do more of these heroes will fall, and we will be left again bemoaning the game we love. The only way out of the heroworship-herofall-disilusionment-newheroworship cycle, as I see it, is to slap a "Steroid" title on the whole messed up bag of nonsense and move on and try to heal ourselves. The game has healed from other such black marks before, including the ugliness around segregation. It will also heal from this, but only after we admit the mistakes of our past, forgive our heroes of the past indiscretions, add their tales to the long narrative of the game and move on.

Hanging all of the sins of this era on one (or ten) player is NOT the solution, and will not bring any of us longtime peace with the game.

That's the way I see it.

Well, I've seen vicious circles and slippery slopes, but never a vicious slope.

More to point, as a society we have become so legalistic in the way we see things like the steroids issue. Does there have to be an admission or a court finding of guilt in order for us to know that Bonds use steroids? Of course not. We have eyes, common sense, experience. We can see the physical changes that Bonds went through during the years, as well as all the other indicators. And was it knowing use? Again, we can use our common sense. If your doctor started injecting you with steroids every time you went in for a flu shot or antibiotics, wouldn't you realize it when your head grew to the size of a jack-o-lantern? When your feet grew huge and your testicles went away. Really?

I understand why the Bonds apologists want to just slap the banner of "Steroids Era" over the entire mess. Here's the problem. It legitimizes Bonds, because then he gets called the best player of the steroids era. Moreover, it punishes the guys who played the game without steroids, by comparing them to those who abused the system.

It will be a mess for years, because there is a legitimate need to know who cheated and who didn't cheat. The integrity of the game requires it. Is it possible a few steroids users will escape the label? Yes. More troubling is the chance that non-users will be labeled incorrectly. For that reason, if no other, we should be very careful and precise, and not throw around allegations without some good basis.

[OaklandA's]

We can see the physical changes that Bonds went through during the years, as well as all the other indicators. And was it knowing use? Again, we can use our common sense. If your doctor started injecting you with steroids every time you went in for a flu shot or antibiotics, wouldn't you realize it when your head grew to the size of a jack-o-lantern? When your feet grew huge and your testicles went away. Really?

C'mon Lucky, you're better than this. The testimony in the case is that Bonds' hat size may have increased from 7-1/4 to 7-3/8, only one-eighth of an inch, not the one-half inch of more that many in the media claimed. That one-eighth inch growth is quite common in men as they get older and heavier - just look at Tony Gwynn. And besides, steroids are not known to cause increased head size - that is HGH, not the "Cream" or the "Clear" that Bonds apparently was taking.

[GwynnInTheHall]

C'mon Lucky, you're better than this. The testimony in the case is that Bonds' hat size may have increased from 7-1/4 to 7-3/8, only one-eighth of an inch, not the one-half inch of more that many in the media claimed. That one-eighth inch growth is quite common in men as they get older and heavier - just look at Tony Gwynn. And besides, steroids are not known to cause increased head size - that is HGH, not the "Cream" or the "Clear" that Bonds apparently was taking.

jeeze.

I'm a Gwynn fan and I can admit he took greenies, face it--Bonds juiced and knew he was juicing. Or don't and join the Bush apologists who still think there are WMD in Iraq.

[OaklandA's]

I'm a Gwynn fan and I can admit he took greenies, face it--Bonds juiced and knew he was juicing. Or don't and join the Bush apologists who still think there are WMD in Iraq.

Please try to read more carefully. I did not say that Bonds did not take steroids. What I said is that saying "OMG - Of course he took steroids, look how big his head is!" is wrong, for the three reasons I stated - 1) His head didn't really grow much; 2) The Cream and Clear don't cause head growth anyway, and 3) People's heads grow larger as they age anyway.

Do you want to dispute any of those specific points, or just continue with your name calling?

[Lucky]

C'mon Lucky, you're better than this. The testimony in the case is that Bonds' hat size may have increased from 7-1/4 to 7-3/8, only one-eighth of an inch, not the one-half inch of more that many in the media claimed. That one-eighth inch growth is quite common in men as they get older and heavier - just look at Tony Gwynn. And besides, steroids are not known to cause increased head size - that is HGH, not the "Cream" or the "Clear" that Bonds apparently was taking.

I didn't know what the testimony in the case was, but his head certainly looks bigger to me. Maybe the shaved head look is part of it.

So, my bad. Please disregard the comments about his head size.*





*(It was not intended to be a factual statement, anyway.)

[GwynnInTheHall]

Please try to read more carefully. I did not say that Bonds did not take steroids. What I said is that saying "OMG - Of course he took steroids, look how big his head is!" is wrong, for the three reasons I stated - 1) His head didn't really grow much; 2) The Cream and Clear don't cause head growth anyway, and 3) People's heads grow larger as they age anyway.

Do you want to dispute any of those specific points, or just continue with your name calling?

I don't believe I've called you anything. I inferred you were hiding your head in the sand if that's what you think name calling is, then I guess I did, but this entire discussion for you seems to be a semantic debate anyhow.

You on the other hand have defended Bonds this entire thread essentially saying-- if he wasn't convicted he didn't lie. You have not said nor are you willing to say flat out--Bonds took steroids and has lied to us about that and about the fact he knew he was taking them as well. Or am I wrong?

Please correct me if I'm wrong and clearly state your position on this as I believe I've made mine crystal clear.