Bonds Found Guilty...

[Judge Jude]

"Anyone who watched Bonds at the plate in the latter part of his career should know that his batting eye was almost unhuman. I've never seen a player decide before a pitch was even thrown whether or not he was even going to start his swing."

That's not as important as what the umpire perceives.

I think Ted Williams had the actual best batting eye ever. Bonds had a great eye, but as noted pitchers wouldn't pitch to him. And if the pitcher hit a corner and Bonds took it, was that called a strike? No.

[ThatRogue]

I completely disagree. Let's use the same logic - Wesley Snipes cheated on his taxes, got caught by the IRS and the courts found him guilty and sentenced him to prison. Can he use the defense that since many others have cheated on their taxes and have gotten away with it, he shouldn't go to jail?

...

You do realize that these two things are not the same, right? Not getting into the HOF could possibly be compared to not getting a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame or not getting a lifetime achievement honor from the Academy. They have both gone through the court system and the arguments made to avoid conviction/jail time are different from the arguments about what honors they deserve because of their career accomplishments.

Now the discussion about cheating on taxes is an interesting one for the average American. Because if the average American has cheated on taxes or fudged an expense report (or who does not have a problem with a friend or loved one who has done so), yet has a problem with steroid users...well...that's pretty darned hypocritical.

[ThatRogue]

My thing with PEDs has always been that we need to pursue knowledge, not prosecution. I care much more about knowing who did what and when so we can judge those players in the court of public opinion than punishing players for their cheating or lying in a court of law. Baseball is a numbers game and whether we should or not, we all like to compare players across eras. It is important to me as a fan to understand relative greatness of players in the game, and for me, PED usage GREATLY impacts my opinion of a player's relative place in history. This is what so many Bonds defenders just don't get. They think he is being scapegoated because of his race or because of his attitude. That isn't the case for me. I care way, way more about what Bonds and Clemens and any other HOF level player did than any of the other random scrubs that will be lost to history, because these players not only unfairly got an advantage over players in their own era, but they unfairly took a place in hisotry that don't deserve.

It irks me to no end that generations to follow won't know or care about how numbers from this era were artificially inflated. They'll just look at the record books and decide, as I once did, that Barry Bonds is the greatest hitter of all time. I don't think Bonds deserves jail time, but he also does not deserve that honor either. He is a cheater and no matter what he implies and Mcguire outright says about how they would have been just as great without the juice (which is total BS), their numbers should forever be severely discounted by historians and fans of the game. But I've met many, many people who don't do that. I've met many who say, "Bonds is the home run king, he's the greatest. He's better than Aaron, he's better then Ruth. Anyone who says otherwise is a hater." That attitude of acceptance of cheating and discounting of the impact of PEDs drives me crazy.

Well stated!

Well, except for the fact that Aaron and other players of his era used amphetamines (illegal) which helped them play more games AND to be sharper during the games in which they played...which, without question, helped their performance.

One day the so-called purists will come to realize that the game that they love so much is just not pure. The game, just like everything else in society, has imperfections...and has had imperfections during it's entire existence. It's just that in the modern media era, these imperfections are a lot more visible than in past eras.

[ThatRogue]

Ok, what about comparing him (Bonds) to one of my favorite players--his contemporary Ken Griffey Jr. No one who was not alive and following baseball in the early 90s would know this now, but everyone on this site, I'm sure, remembers that Griffey was long considered the superior player.

...

Mainly because baseball writers LOVED Ken Griffey, Jr. in Seattle and DESPISED Barry Bonds

Bonds shot way past him, because Griffey's career fizzled out while Bonds shot into the stratosphere.

Remember too that baseball writers didn't really care for Ken Griffey, Jr. in Cincinnati. I believe that had Bonds not had the huge performance improvements post-1998, baseball writing would have started to evaluate Bonds as the superior player, due to the increased use of statistical analysis to evaluate players. The numbers were telling us that Bonds combination of OBP, OPS and stolen base success made him the better hitter, pre-1998 (assuming his PED use began around that time), and that Junior's defense could not make up the difference.

And, to quantify, here are their careers through 1998:

Bonds: 1898 G, 8100 PA, 411 HR, 445 SB (77% success rate); .290/.411/.556 for a .966 OPS, 164 OPS+ and 3679TB

Junior: 1375 G, 5982 PA, 350 HR, 143 SB (73% success rate); .300/.379/.568 for a .947 OPS, 150 OPS+ and 2967 TB

For comparison sake, here is Bonds career from 1989 through 1998, as he started playing in 1986, three years before Junior:

Bonds: 1491 G, 6391 PA, 346 HR, 360 SB (78% success rate), .299/.429/.581 for a 1.099 OPS, 175 OPS+ and 2972 TB

And here is Bonds career during his first ten seasons:

Bonds: 1425 G, 6038 PA, 292 HR, 340 SB (77% success rate), .286/.398/.541 for a .938 OPS, 158 OPS+ and 2714 TB

I think we can agree that Junior being "long considered the superior player" was more hyperbole than statistical fact.

[Hammer]

The problem Dane, is that no one posting here actually watched Bonds play a game. At least that's what I can gather from their blind assumptions. Anyone who watched Bonds at the plate in the latter part of his career should know that his batting eye was almost unhuman. I've never seen a player decide before a pitch was even thrown whether or not he was even going to start his swing. He was so locked in, maybe he was taking adderall, but it wasn't steroids giving him that concentration.

Was this post made for effect? I would venture to say almost everyone who posts here saw bonds play , pre and pst steroid usage.

[netboy47]

You do realize that these two things are not the same, right? Not getting into the HOF could possibly be compared to not getting a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame or not getting a lifetime achievement honor from the Academy. They have both gone through the court system and the arguments made to avoid conviction/jail time are different from the arguments about what honors they deserve because of their career accomplishments.

Now the discussion about cheating on taxes is an interesting one for the average American. Because if the average American has cheated on taxes or fudged an expense report (or who does not have a problem with a friend or loved one who has done so), yet has a problem with steroid users...well...that's pretty darned hypocritical.

I was not suggesting that they were the same. I was attempting to poke hole in the Dane's assertion that since there were others that used that we aren't aware of, we should let Bonds/McGwire/Clemens into the Hall, even if they've been caught using or have admitted to using PEDs.

Again, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, and I'm not being condescending, but it seems like many of you have never visited the Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum. The Hall of Fame portion is just that - a separate section with the busts of the players that have been elected to the HOF. The museum portion has hundreds of displays, including ones featuring Pete Rose, Joe Jackson, Barry Bonds et al. No one is suggesting that we erase what Barry Bonds has done - I'm just suggesting that since he cheated, he should not be honored with a HOF bust.

And for the record, the court case vs. Bonds is irrelevant in the discussion. The fact that he did take steroids and admitted as much is the relevant point.

[The Dane]

I guess what it all boils down to is this: I think most players used steroids, at least once, in order to heal from injury or perform better. I firmly believe, and no amount of blather here will convince me otherwise, that players that have never been associated with steroids also took them, including Griffey. Because I have absolutely no confidence in my ability to assign guilt or innocence in this situation, I have to assume everyone is one or the other. The idea that we grant Griffey a first ballot and reject Bonds completely feels extreme to me, because I feel both players are probably guilty to some extent.

As most of you know, I'm an English teacher. One of the activities I often do is read aloud with the kids. They read, I read, we all read. The books sit on the desks and the kids come and go throughout the day and use the books. Every now and then a book comes up missing. I KNOW some kid took the book, either knowingly or not, and I need the book back, otherwise the charge will go on my school account in the bookroom, and once they go missing I won't have enough for every kid to have one when we read. I know there is guilt in the room and I suspect that troublemaker who sits in the back and snickers, but I'm not sure, 100%. I didn't see him take the book, but SOMEBODY took the book. Here's what I do: First I blame every kid. "Get my damn book back, you dingleberries!" If that fails, there is only one thing left to do: Blame no one. The class is eventually off the hook, because I can't be an effective teacher if I'm yelling at them every day over one damn book. Eventually, I have to put the issue to rest and move on, because the problem that is damaging my class is no longer the missing book, but the uninformed blaming that is going on.

[Hammer]

Griffey has been linked to nothing involving steroids and to suggest he is guilty of it is wrong.

[The Dane]

Griffey has been linked to nothing involving steroids and to suggest he is guilty of it is wrong.

Pretending that Bonds, Clemens, McGuire et al are the only players who used is also wrong.

[Hammer]

Pretending that Bonds, Clemens, McGuire et al are the only players who used is also wrong.

so now Griffey gets lumped in just because? Thats garbage and you know it. Sure others did it but to accuse specific people of cheating because 'others' did it, is ridiculous.

Bottom line, Bonds numbers are forever tainted and thats of his own doing. He also wasnt half the defensive player Griffey was. I guess thats what happens when you get caught cheating.

[wannabegriffey]

Pretending that Bonds, Clemens, McGuire et al are the only players who used is also wrong.

Dane, I find you one of the most interesting posters on rotojunkie but your stance here is just too much. balcoboy is a cheater. He destroyed records at an age when historically, for 100 years, players were on the downside of their career. balcoboy broke records because he cheated. To believe he achieved the numbers without a massive amount of science AND deserves to be in the HOF just doesn't sit well with me. balcoboy cheated. Yes, others cheated and are not going into the HOF. They were not good enough with or without the drugs but balcoboy cheated to reach the heights. IMHO, you are too soft for what these jerk-offs make me and many others feel for a game we once loved. And it is because the numbers are not human, that they were reached with the syringe that is most disturbing. In other words, balcoboy cheated and nobody made him cheat. He chose to cheat.

[Fresno Bob]

for every hitter that did steroids, so did a pitcher. I'd guess 50% of MLB used/tried them.....move on....

[The Dane]

Dane, I find you one of the most interesting posters on rotojunkie but your stance here is just too much. balcoboy is a cheater. He destroyed records at an age when historically, for 100 years, players were on the downside of their career. balcoboy broke records because he cheated. To believe he achieved the numbers without a massive amount of science AND deserves to be in the HOF just doesn't sit well with me. balcoboy cheated. Yes, others cheated and are not going into the HOF. They were not good enough with or without the drugs but balcoboy cheated to reach the heights. IMHO, you are too soft for what these jerk-offs make me and many others feel for a game we once loved. And it is because the numbers are not human, that they were reached with the syringe that is most disturbing. In other words, balcoboy cheated and nobody made him cheat. He chose to cheat.

I'm not really arguing with anything you wrote here. I just see a vicious slope being constructed. I have a real hard time pinning it all on Bonds. He didn't do ALL the steroids by himself. We all KNOW other players used, even those who have never previously been linked to steroids. Look at how painful it has been over the years to see our heroes tumble. Making Bonds the sacrificial scapegoat is false salve to our wounds. Sure, in the short term, we feel better. We've punished the bad cheater and rewarded those who didn't cheat. Bad Barry! You ruined the game. Good Griffey! You did it the right way. But, the way I see it, the dominoes haven't finished falling, and when they do more of these heroes will fall, and we will be left again bemoaning the game we love. The only way out of the heroworship-herofall-disilusionment-newheroworship cycle, as I see it, is to slap a "Steroid" title on the whole messed up bag of nonsense and move on and try to heal ourselves. The game has healed from other such black marks before, including the ugliness around segregation. It will also heal from this, but only after we admit the mistakes of our past, forgive our heroes of the past indiscretions, add their tales to the long narrative of the game and move on.

Hanging all of the sins of this era on one (or ten) player is NOT the solution, and will not bring any of us longtime peace with the game.

That's the way I see it.

[ThatRogue]

I'm still curious to understand Hammer, netboy and wannabegriffey's stance on Gaylord Perry, as well as how they feel about the players of Mays-Aaron's era, that we know used Amphetamines.

(And, for the record, Ken Griffey, Jr is, along with Willie Mays, my all time favorite player.)

[wannabegriffey]

I'm not really arguing with anything you wrote here. I just see a vicious slope being constructed. I have a real hard time pinning it all on Bonds. He didn't do ALL the steroids by himself. We all KNOW other players used, even those who have never previously been linked to steroids. Look at how painful it has been over the years to see our heroes tumble. Making Bonds the sacrificial scapegoat is false salve to our wounds. Sure, in the short term, we feel better. We've punished the bad cheater and rewarded those who didn't cheat. Bad Barry! You ruined the game. Good Griffey! You did it the right way. But, the way I see it, the dominoes haven't finished falling, and when they do more of these heroes will fall, and we will be left again bemoaning the game we love. The only way out of the heroworship-herofall-disilusionment-newheroworship cycle, as I see it, is to slap a "Steroid" title on the whole messed up bag of nonsense and move on and try to heal ourselves. The game has healed from other such black marks before, including the ugliness around segregation. It will also heal from this, but only after we admit the mistakes of our past, forgive our heroes of the past indiscretions, add their tales to the long narrative of the game and move on.

Hanging all of the sins of this era on one (or ten) player is NOT the solution, and will not bring any of us longtime peace with the game.

That's the way I see it.

Maybe it is because he broke some of the most treasured power records of my favorite game that I take issue with him specifically, but all users in general. He is THE lightening rod of PED's in baseball, with clemens a close second, no?