Bonds Found Guilty...

[GwynnInTheHall]

He was on trial for perjury to the grand jury. If you read his statements to the Grand Jury and actually look at the evidence, it is obvious that there is virtually no evidence on which to convict him for perjury. Even the "inadmissible evidence" never proves that he knowingly took steroids.

You are saying that he should be convicted on this crime and sent to jail, even if he is not guilty of the charges, because you think he deserves to be punished for some other actions. Kind of an "ends justifies the means" judgement. I just can't support a legal system like that. That's the same mentality that allows cops to plant evidence, because they "know" the suspect is guilty of something.

I understand what you're saying but planting evidence isn't what I said. You believe people are innocent until proven 'beyond a shadow of a doubt' to be guilty-- well that's cool for the legal system, but you can't tell me that guilty people don't walk free because of that same system. Bonds said he never knowingly took steroids. I believe he's lying. Like I said, I might be wrong, but it'd be the exception. OJ killed his wife and walked. Bonds did steroids, lied about it and will walk with a slap on the wrist. I know a liar when I hear one.

So think what you will as will I.

[Kevin Seitzer]

So he was convicted for being too evasive in his "answer" about Greg Anderson injecting him?

[netboy47]

Did anyone really think that this would end any other way?

They already want to get eye witness testimonies removed from the court system all together, and this was clearly a he said, she said case. Once he said that he never "knowingly" took steroids, he was on the clear.

Fixed.

I'm just glad this whole charade is over. I think we can all agree that Bonds knowingly did steroids and will likely never make the HOF, which is probably more of a punishment to him than the potential of some jail time.

In the end, the only person/entity that Bonds hurt was himself and MLB, and Selig chose to look the other way when it was going on, so they both kinda got what they deserved. Meanwhile, the federal government spent millions trying to convict a baseball player for perjury while those crooks who gamed the system, sending our economy into the worst shape since the Great Depression, remain free and continue to do what they did to drive the economy into the gutter. But that's a thread for a different forum.

[onejayhawk]

One count of Obstruction of Justice...

Impeach.

J

[onejayhawk]

Fixed.

I'm just glad this whole charade is over. I think we can all agree that Bonds knowingly did steroids and will likely never make the HOF, which is probably more of a punishment to him than the potential of some jail time.

In the end, the only person/entity that Bonds hurt was himself and MLB, and Selig chose to look the other way when it was going on, so they both kinda got what they deserved. Meanwhile, the federal government spent millions trying to convict a baseball player for perjury while those crooks who gamed the system, sending our economy into the worst shape since the Great Depression, remain free and continue to do what they did to drive the economy into the gutter. But that's a thread for a different forum.

Sorry. Any HoF that does not include Bonds is a steaming crock. The guy is one of the 10-20 best ever to play the game. Make him wait a few years, sure, but he has to go in. Rocket too.

J

[The Dane]

Sorry. Any HoF that does not include Bonds is a steaming crock. The guy is one of the 10-20 best ever to play the game. Make him wait a few years, sure, but he has to go in. Rocket too.

J

Agreed. And I also think Rose and Jackson should be in as well.

The thing that gets me is this: They call it The Steroid Era because so many players were using that they cannot separate the users from the non-users. Don't kid yourself. Bonds, Clemens, Palmiero, McGuire, Canseco and Manny didn't do ALL the steroids by themselves. So many players were on it that it is an "era"of baseball. So, we are simply going to reject any player who is positively (or quasi-positively) connected to steroids, and let in those from this era who are not... when we don't really know who used and who didn't? We assume players like Maddux never touched the stuff, but we don't really KNOW, do we? Yet, he's getting in with the first ballot. We don't have enough facts of what really happened to make judgements and simply punishing the few names we know seems arbitrary and unnecessarily harsh to a few players when so many others will doubtlessly slide in (and may already be there).

Make them wait, but let them in.

[Hammer]

The HOF is an absolute joke so sure let all the clowns in. The HOF means less than it ever has in baseball history.

[netboy47]

Agreed. And I also think Rose and Jackson should be in as well.

The thing that gets me is this: They call it The Steroid Era because so many players were using that they cannot separate the users from the non-users. Don't kid yourself. Bonds, Clemens, Palmiero, McGuire, Canseco and Manny didn't do ALL the steroids by themselves. So many players were on it that it is an "era"of baseball. So, we are simply going to reject any player who is positively (or quasi-positively) connected to steroids, and let in those from this era who are not... when we don't really know who used and who didn't? We assume players like Maddux never touched the stuff, but we don't really KNOW, do we? Yet, he's getting in with the first ballot. We don't have enough facts of what really happened to make judgements and simply punishing the few names we know seems arbitrary and unnecessarily harsh to a few players when so many others will doubtlessly slide in (and may already be there).

Make them wait, but let them in.

I completely disagree. Let's use the same logic - Wesley Snipes cheated on his taxes, got caught by the IRS and the courts found him guilty and sentenced him to prison. Can he use the defense that since many others have cheated on their taxes and have gotten away with it, he shouldn't go to jail?

The Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum is two parts. The Hall of Fame should be reserved for those who deserve it - those who didn't cheat the game and who earned it based on their true merits. Would Bonds/Clemens have been Hall of Famers without steroids? Probably, but since they decided to cheat, we'll never know and that's punishment they deserve. And considering that only 26% of the baseball writers have to agree with this thinking, they will never get into the HOF. They'll still be immortalized in the museum, just not in the Hall.

[The Dane]

I completely disagree. Let's use the same logic - Wesley Snipes cheated on his taxes, got caught by the IRS and the courts found him guilty and sentenced him to prison. Can he use the defense that since many others have cheated on their taxes and have gotten away with it, he shouldn't go to jail?

Yes, let's!

Barry Bond MAY have cheated in baseball, never got caught by MLB and the courts did not find him guilty and sentence him to prison. Can he not use the defense that since many others have cheated in MLB and have gotten away with it, he shouldn't go to the Hall?

That is not a fair comparison. Bonds didn't get caught; that's the whole point. His conviction yesterday isn't even about steroids. By all accounts, the government has no case. That doesn't necessarily mean he never did steroids, but it does mean that he is NOT GUILTY. Punishing someone for being not-guilty is counter-intuitive to me.

A Hall that doesn't include Bonds or Clemens or McGuire or Rose or Jackson -and yet still has Cobb (and other miscreants)- is not a Hall of Fame. Black mark or not, they HAPPENED, and editing them out of the story is akin to rewriting history. The Hall actively embraces the issues baseball has had with racism and bigotry and other scandals, why should this be any different?

[netboy47]

That is not a fair comparison. Bonds didn't get caught; that's the whole point. His conviction yesterday isn't even about steroids. By all accounts, the government has no case. That doesn't necessarily mean he never did steroids, but it does mean that he is NOT GUILTY. Punishing someone for being not-guilty is counter-intuitive to me.

He admitted that he used steroids (unknowingly, he claims). And he may very well be on the list of 103 players that tested positive back in 2003, not that it is admissible in a court of law. However, the HOF is not a court of law.

My argument has nothing to do with the court case. He cheated, knowingly or not. And no one is suggesting we re-write history. Bonds baseball exploits will be remembered in the museum for generations to come, just like Joe Jackson and Pete Rose are today. No one is denying that Bonds/Clemens/McGwire/Rose happened - they just don't belong in the HOF.

[Hornsby]

So he was convicted for being too evasive in his "answer" about Greg Anderson injecting him?

Yes, he was convicted of intentionally trying to mislead the grand jury:

"Did Greg ever give you anything that required a syringe to inject yourself with?" Bonds was asked.

His answer meandered, talking about his friendship with Anderson. The underlined part in the indictment, the crime he was convicted of, was this response: "That's what keeps our friendship. You know, I am sorry, but that -- you know, that -- I was a celebrity child, not just in baseball by my own instincts. I became a celebrity child with a famous father. I just don't get into other people's business because of my father's situation, you see."

The jury instruction said that to be convicted, Bonds must be found to have "obstructed, influenced or impeded, or endeavored to obstruct, influence, or impede" the grand jury "by knowingly giving material testimony that was intentionally evasive, false or misleading."

[netboy47]

Yeah, I don't know that being refused entry into the HoF is a punishment, per se. Seems that Bonds has pretty effectively avoided any real sort of punishment throughout this entire scandal so far, other than having his good name (deservedly, imo) tarnished. I guess that could change on May 20th.

To those guys (Bonds, Clemens, McGwire), not getting into the Hall of Fame is a significant punishment to their egos.

[The Dane]

I have trouble "punishing" any of these guys. Here's why: I am convinced beyond any doubt that there are players with Hall of Fame resumes who took steroids and were never linked to steroids. Does anyone dispute this? I doubt it. For whatever reason, these players never got fingered; either they were more discreet, they didn't shoot up with Jose Canseco, or they bought their stuff from a ring that has yet to be exposed. So, the only difference between these unknown players and Bonds is that Bonds was accused.

I have trouble punishing someone who was simply accused when so many others have likely escaped that punishment even though they may be just as guilty.

Don't think I come to this conclusion lightly; this is a complex issue where the "not-guilty" are not exactly innocent. I can dislike the steroid user for using while -at the same time- think he should be in the Hall.

[Lurker765]

Does anyone know why he couldn't take the 5th in the grand jury investigation? Are you not allowed to avoid self-incrimination in a grand jury?

[Cobain's Ghost]

I have trouble "punishing" any of these guys. Here's why: I am convinced beyond any doubt that there are players with Hall of Fame resumes who took steroids and were never linked to steroids. Does anyone dispute this? I doubt it. For whatever reason, these players never got fingered; either they were more discreet, they didn't shoot up with Jose Canseco, or they bought their stuff from a ring that has yet to be exposed. So, the only difference between these unknown players and Bonds is that Bonds was accused.

:coughmikepiazzacough: