So, who are you madder at? The players or the owners?

[Midnight Otter]

Me, I'm on the player's side this time.

[Piney Boy]

I am also on the players side. Still they got down to $185 million as the difference. This will get solved and we should have a season.

[Midnight Otter]

I am also on the players side. Still they got down to $185 million as the difference. This will get solved and we should have a season.

I don't know. The league reps are saying some nasty things about the players union.

[revo]

I don't know why, but I rarely take the side of the players in labor disputes, and this time is no different. I guess I feel players are just employees: they are well-compensated, but they come and go. Owners own the teams, the stadiums, negotiate the ad contracts, and pay for the labor. They have a right to control costs and make the profits.

How can players making $25m a year have a real gripe?

[chancellor]

How can players making $25m a year have a real gripe?

Because very few of them do and the physical toll that football costs is enormous. We're just beginning to learn the ins and outs of brain damage to football players at all levels.

In addition, I'd have more sympathy for the owners if they didn't clearly try to stack the deck going in. Only through a court order was their clear bad faith exposed and ended.

OTOH, the union better not abandon the old players like they did last time.

[revo]

Because very few of them do and the physical toll that football costs is enormous. We're just beginning to learn the ins and outs of brain damage to football players at all levels.

In addition, I'd have more sympathy for the owners if they didn't clearly try to stack the deck going in. Only through a court order was their clear bad faith exposed and ended.

OTOH, the union better not abandon the old players like they did last time.

The average salary as of the 09-10 season was just about $2m. The guys on the lawsuit are all making $20m+. It's still hard to feel bad for employees making an average of $2m per.

I guess I disagree with the way the NFL was portrayed in regards to "stacking the deck." Didn't the NFLPA do the same thing through its Lockout Fund? Clearly the judge didn't think so, and the NFL will lose its leverage, but "not acting in good faith" as the courts put it, was a little harsh. They still got a TON of money from the broadcast deals.

The NFLPA also asked for financial statements, which as private entities the franchises didn't want to provide. But can't they just look at the Packers' statements, since they are a public company?

[cavebird]

I don't know why, but I rarely take the side of the players in labor disputes, and this time is no different. I guess I feel players are just employees: they are well-compensated, but they come and go. Owners own the teams, the stadiums, negotiate the ad contracts, and pay for the labor. They have a right to control costs and make the profits.

How can players making $25m a year have a real gripe?

Why do the owners have the right to "control their costs" and "make the profits." Absolutely nobody (well at least I hope not) goes to the games or watches them on TV or buys the jerseys because of the owners. They do it because of the players. And the owners usually don't own the stadiums---they get the taxpayers to pay for them (Jerry Jones excepted).

[onejayhawk]

I don't know. The league reps are saying some nasty things about the players union.

Due diligence. The union decerifying is the same. They have to dance all the steps.

J

[revo]

Why do the owners have the right to "control their costs" and "make the profits." Absolutely nobody (well at least I hope not) goes to the games or watches them on TV or buys the jerseys because of the owners. They do it because of the players. And the owners usually don't own the stadiums---they get the taxpayers to pay for them (Jerry Jones excepted).

Fans are fans of the players, or of the teams? Do you know anyone in the NFL who buys season tickets because they're Eli Manning fans, or because they're Giant fans?

Players come and go. The Michael Turner jersey you bought today is because he is a Falcon, plain and simple, and from the same team that you bought the Jamal Anderson jersey, the Gerald Riggs jersey, and the Steve Bartkowski jersey before him. You buy jerseys because you're a FALCON fan, not because you're a fan of specific Falcon players. Football is far from baseball in that regard. Very few NFL teams are centered around a single star player, no matter how great that player is.

Fact is fans of football will come out no matter who is on their team, in most cases; no matter if they suck or not; no matter if they have the best players in the league. Top two drawing teams in the NFL this season? Washington and Dallas, a combined 12-20. Who was the star on Washington? Ryan Torain? Santana Moss? Who bought season tickets to see those two?

Fans don't go to NFL games to see the players, I'm sorry. They go to see their team. They go because the NFL is the #1 sport in America, period.

[Hammer]

I thought I would care more about this lockout but I don't. Let em stay out for years. They're all greedy bastages.

[wannabegriffey]

They're all greedy .

I completely agree.

I use to attend 30'ish baseball games and 10ish hockey games a year...they walked out on me, I never went back.

I wonder how many other people now spend their dollars elsewhere ?

[chancellor]

The average salary as of the 09-10 season was just about $2m. The guys on the lawsuit are all making $20m+. It's still hard to feel bad for employees making an average of $2m per.

Versus an owner worth $2bil per? As CB noted, many of these owners have taken significant tax benefits to assist in profits.

I guess I disagree with the way the NFL was portrayed in regards to "stacking the deck." Didn't the NFLPA do the same thing through its Lockout Fund? Clearly the judge didn't think so, and the NFL will lose its leverage, but "not acting in good faith" as the courts put it, was a little harsh. They still got a TON of money from the broadcast deals.

We'll agree to disagree here - the owners, in my view, clearly abrogated the contract in order to stash that $4 billion away. Sure, the players got a ton of money. But I sure don't see any owners hurting for cash - nor any whose brains are being turned to mush, either. Well, other than Al Davis. And none of them are getting their bodies destroyed on a weekly basis. Or being asked to get their bodies destroyed even more per year by adding 12.5% more games to the regular season.

The NFLPA also asked for financial statements, which as private entities the franchises didn't want to provide. But can't they just look at the Packers' statements, since they are a public company?

The Packers bylaws give full financial control over to the board and president. They can - but are not required to - release detailed financials.

OTOH, if you want to claim another $1 billion/year of a $9 billion pie, I'd fully expect some real documentation that supports the need for the players to give up that money. I can guarantee if I have a $900,000 construction contract with a client and hit them with $100,000 in change orders, I'd better have some documentation behind it.

[revo]

Versus an owner worth $2bil per? As CB noted, many of these owners have taken significant tax benefits to assist in profits.

You're really going to compare an offensive lineman who barely makes a roster to, let's say, an Arthur Blank, who started a company from nothing that became enormously successful, and bought a fledgling franchise for over half a billion dollars? If this is Jim Dolan, OK, he can go F himself, as can many others who inherit their teams/wealth (and yes, there are many). But even a hated guy like a Daniel Snyder or Jerry Jones started from nothing to become a billionaire, and you really want to say that guy doesn't deserve it? Why should someone who earned every cent he made be thrown under the bus because he made it?

Or being asked to get their bodies destroyed even more per year by adding 12.5% more games to the regular season.

Long gone from this discussion. The 18-game season is DOA.

OTOH, if you want to claim another $1 billion/year of a $9 billion pie, I'd fully expect some real documentation that supports the need for the players to give up that money. I can guarantee if I have a $900,000 construction contract with a client and hit them with $100,000 in change orders, I'd better have some documentation behind it.

Agreed.

[revo]

Let's not forget that playing in the NFL is a privilege. These players are almost always college grads, since NFL rules prevent juniors from entering unless their college class can enter (meaning they redshirted if they did not graduate). That means since most NFL careers last 3 years, they at least have their degrees to fall back on (unlike a baseball player drafted out of HS, or a basketball player who left as a freshman let's say).

So if the average NFL career is just under 4 years that they earned an average of $400k/yr for (assuming they made the minimum), they can always pursue another career. And they're light years ahead of their senior classmates in terms of $$/Yr.

[Trautdiggity]

Does anyone else see the irony of Scott Walker apologists/supporters standing up for the NFLPA?