*** VD 12 Commentary Thread ***

[Kevin Seitzer]

Thank you, gentlemen.

The vintage draft conversation is the best part of Rotojunkie. Can you believe, 135 pages of this crap?

[The Feral Slasher]

Thank you, gentlemen.

The vintage draft conversation is the best part of Rotojunkie. Can you believe, 135 pages of this crap?

Congrats to you and frae and whoever else. Looking forwars to vd13

[johnnya24]

FINAL STANDINGS

x	Team      	CH	CP	BYH	BYP	Multi	Place
.01	TS Garp__	38.2	40.2	50.1	48.3	176.842	7
.02	KS_______	48.7	46.8	47.0	49.6	192.195	1
.03	Mookie___	49.7	47.1	33.3	28.3	158.499	12
.04	Frae______	38.2	49.2	50.9	47.7	185.996	2
.05	JohnnyA__	40.5	39.4	38.2	53.7	171.737	9
.06	Hacko____	41.0	47.4	41.8	37.1	167.272	10
.07	Ken______	42.9	32.6	39.8	38.3	153.525	14
.08	mjl_______	41.7	34.6	47.1	56.8	180.325	5
.09	Feral Slash	36.4	50.7	40.0	35.8	162.892	11
.10	DMT_____	55.6	48.3	41.8	38.9	184.567	3
.11	Revo_____	51.0	38.7	51.6	37.1	178.487	6
.12	El Bene___	43.2	43.5	49.8	46.3	182.808	4
.13	Controller_	48.0	37.9	40.0	38.5	171.932	8
.14	Heyelander	27.0	49.4	34.0	41.0	156.294	13

[johnnya24]

Congrats to KS, Frae and DMT!!

Well done fellas.

[mjl]

thanks to the last couple picks the final results are slightly less scandalous - after switching Ripken to stephve01 1949 I'm still leading Revo 179.0 to 178.1, though it would actually move Johnny up to 8th past ConJ because it gets Johnny out of last in Career RBI.

[johnnya24]

thanks to the last couple picks the final results are slightly less scandalous - after switching Ripken to stephve01 1949 I'm still leading Revo 179.0 to 178.1, though it would actually move Johnny up to 8th past ConJ because it gets Johnny out of last in Career RBI.

Official complaint submitted.

Also, that feeling when you pick Aaron and Pujols 1-2, and finish last in RBI. Tip of the day, don't do that.

[TS Garp]

Congratulations, KS! And kudos to Frae & DMT, as well. Very fun draft, as always. I made some big mistakes in the middle rounds but I do feel like I learned a few things that will hopefully help me in future drafts.

[Bene Futuis]

VD research reaffirmed one thing I've long thought --- Mike Mussina should not be in the HoF. I'm not sure why he gets such strong consideration, frankly. He's not all that close, imo. Harold Baines is also not close at all.

[Bene Futuis]

Two more random thoughts: Louis CK is a far bigger piece of shit than I'd known. Go away, fucking loser. Also, we should be so lucky to have someone as economically well-versed as Elizabeth Warren as our President. Of course, racist shitbaggery about her as "Pocohontas" will likely undermine her run. We don't deserve someone as good as her.

[Ken]

VD research reaffirmed one thing I've long thought --- Mike Mussina should not be in the HoF. I'm not sure why he gets such strong consideration, frankly. He's not all that close, imo. Harold Baines is also not close at all.

Agree on Baines.
On Mussina, doesn't pitching during the steroids area mean that the comparison between VD draft rate and HoF credentials are not exactly fair?

[Bene Futuis]

Agree on Baines.
On Mussina, doesn't pitching during the steroids area mean that the comparison between VD draft rate and HoF credentials are not exactly fair?

Steroid-laden pitchers pitching to steroid-laden batters. I think it likely all evens out, competitively speaking. Of course stats like ERA+ account for performance relative to the rest of the league. All that said, Mussina was pretty good for a pretty long time. At no time was he the best in the league. The best argument for Mussina is that there are worse players already in. That argument isn't a great one, imo.

[Bene Futuis]

I focus signicantly on peak performance when I think about who should be in the HoF. That's why it's hard to make a strong case for Mussina, in my mind. He had two "dominant" seasons but mostly just hung around forever as an above average guy, a la Blyleven.

[Bene Futuis]

It's hard, though, because there are a ton of guys like Mussina. Don Sutton, Fergie Jenkins, etc etc etc. At some point the ability to hang around as an above average pitcher is an extremely rare skill and should probably eclipse or equal peak performance. Tough call.

[Ken]

Steroid-laden pitchers pitching to steroid-laden batters. I think it likely all evens out, competitively speaking.

I mean sure, unless you are a pitcher not on steroids...

Of course stats like ERA+ account for performance relative to the rest of the league. All that said, Mussina was pretty good for a pretty long time. At no time was he the best in the league. The best argument for Mussina is that there are worse players already in. That argument isn't a great one, imo.

I think 23rd overall in career WAR for a pitcher is a pretty good argument. He and Clemens are the only ones in the top 25 not in the HoF.

[Bene Futuis]

I mean sure, unless you are a pitcher not on steroids...

Which ones were the ones on steroids? Which ones were not? The only ones we know for sure are those who failed tests - A-Rod, Manny, Raffy, epic p.o.s. Ryan Braun and only a few other notables worthy of HoF consideration. Honestly, it's not even a factor that I consider really at all. I just operate on the assumption that they were all taking substances. Based on some small insider information I have about that era, that's a pretty fair assumption. But the only fair way to exclude (or include) someone is on the basis of actual evidence. Since that basis seems to be unreasonably limited, I just toss it aside. It's just another "live ball" era for me, just like the 1930s or 1987 or whatever.

I agree that Moose's best argument is career WAR, a stat that really benefits the guys who hang around forever. I mean, I think we can all agree that Phil Niekro isn't the 11th best pitcher of all time or that Sandy Koufax is the 87th best.