What's the right World Islam policy/strategy?

[johnnya24]

Here's an unpopular solution: instead of committing to war and death, which seems very clearly to create an environment in which extremism flourishes, let's support the populations economically to whatever extent possible and create an environment in which people do not need to cling to a desperate ideology in order to survive or flourish. That strategy applies equally domestically as it does internationally, imo.

That sounds a lot like common sense.

But how is that going to protect the $20 gazillion annual investment in the military-industrial-intelligence complex?

Until we get this neo-Russian Cold War thing up and running, Islamic evil doers will just have to do. Start ups sometimes take a long time to get going.

[TranaGreg]

For those interested, an update article from yesterday's new york times on a Syrian refugee family that came to canada last year ... especially interesting for me as they live a couple hundred feet from where I do (I recognize them from the neighbourhood).

Wonder and Worry as a Syrian Child Transforms

[B-Fly]

Worth a bump in the context of the resignation of Secretary Mattis. It goes beyond just a World Islam policy/strategy into broader questions about the proper role of the US in matters of international security and the broader question of what interests we think do or could justify US military intervention, either unilaterally or as part of an international coalition.

[baldgriff]

The US has to stop being the police for the World! As I said in a different thread - we can't continue with the idea of "spreading freedom" to the world by force or by some type of subterfuge. There are HUGE cultural and religious implications to the idea of having personal liberties and freedom and implementing them.

[B-Fly]

The US has to stop being the police for the World! As I said in a different thread - we can't continue with the idea of "spreading freedom" to the world by force or by some type of subterfuge. There are HUGE cultural and religious implications to the idea of having personal liberties and freedom and implementing them.

I think there's relatively broad agreement with the statement that we can't be the world's "policeman". Mattis himself stated his agreement with Trump on that concept in his resignation letter. But if you look back at the original post in this thread, and read the Mattis letter, I don't think just making that "stop being the police" statement answers much about what strategies and objectives and interests the US should be promoting or defending internationally and what means are best suited to those strategies and objectives.

[baldgriff]

I think there's relatively broad agreement with the statement that we can't be the world's "policeman". Mattis himself stated his agreement with Trump on that concept in his resignation letter. But if you look back at the original post in this thread, and read the Mattis letter, I don't think just making that "stop being the police" statement answers much about what strategies and objectives and interests the US should be promoting or defending internationally and what means are best suited to those strategies and objectives.

So are we then discussing the battle between Islam and Western Civilization?

[B-Fly]

So are we then discussing the battle between Islam and Western Civilization?

No, because "Western Civilization" isn't an entity/actor capable of executing a strategy. We're discussing what the United States' foreign policy should be, at a strategic level, and why, either with specific regard to security threats from/in the Islamic world, or more globally including the potential threats from, say, Russia, China or other global actors.

[baldgriff]

I have to admit I am no genius at International Politics or Foreign Policy. I tend to believe that we have enough problems in our own back yard that we should not be trying to "fix" the issues in other countries.

That stated, I believe that the security threats from/in the Islamic world have different motivations than those we see coming from Russia, China and other non-Middle East global actors.

[Kevin Seitzer]

So are we then discussing the battle between Islam and Western Civilization?

Traditionally, Islam has been considered part of Western civilization, as opposed to China/India, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, which constitute Eastern civilization. Much of our mathematics, astronomy, philosophy, etc., come from Islamic thinkers and scientists.

[baldgriff]

That may be true traditionally, but are we not seeing in Europe some conflict between the two currently? Areas going unpoliced (No-GO zones) in countries like England, Germany and other countries - specifically around these areas being Islamic and not wanting to conform to the laws established in those countries vs their religious laws?

[Kevin Seitzer]

That may be true traditionally, but are we not seeing in Europe some conflict between the two currently? Areas going unpoliced (No-GO zones) in countries like England, Germany and other countries - specifically around these areas being Islamic and not wanting to conform to the laws established in those countries vs their religious laws?

Conflict, yes, and significant conflict in places. Conflict about what Western civilization means. I'm not trying to diminish the conflict, just trying to emphasize that we share a lot of roots. It's analogous in some ways to the conflict between Protestants and Catholics in the 1500s and following, in that it threatened to tear the very fabric of civilization.

The Islamists believe that Western Europe and the U.S. display a lot of decadence, greed, individualism, lack of respect for family and tribe, lack of hospitality and community, etc., that they think betray the foundations of Western civilization.

I'm not arguing that they are correct, but I do believe their cause is from within Western civilization and fundamentally a conservative one (i.e., trying to return it to its old ways), not from without and trying to destroy it or liberalize it with new ways.

[TranaGreg]

Interesting analogy with the protestants and catholics in the 1500s - yeah, there are a lot of similarities.

And the battle is really an internal one (Sunni vs Shia) . North America and Western Europe are caught up because we are obviously a huge consumer of their primary resource. And western Europe from a refugee perspective - which will only get worse if the west completely abandons the ME.

[baldgriff]

But if these groups of refugees and immgrants refuse to assimilate and follow the laws of the countries they go to the battles will continue and the countries will lose for fear of "offending" the new groups.

[nullnor]

part of the problem assimilating in Europe these days compared to US is our immigrants are christian or have the same religion. or similar. or that's what they say. although i never fully realized the differences in Christianity before...so if different christians can have difficulty agreeing, you would imagine how different religions would have more difficulty. in this sense, Europe could be kind of screwed. and they'll have a really hard time trying to solve immigration.

[DMT]

But if these groups of refugees and immgrants refuse to assimilate and follow the laws of the countries they go to the battles will continue and the countries will lose for fear of "offending" the new groups.

Following laws is one thing but plenty of immigrants don't really "assimilate"... go to any major city and explore the immigrant neighborhoods for evidence.