The new COVID thread

[Bene Futuis]

The guy in the red shirt gets it.

Pow! Right in the ventilator!

[GwynnInTheHall]

So the past couple of days interacting with Anti vaxxers and Covid deniers has been enlightening to say the least.

Hospitals get 39K if they claim a death was due to Covid...blah blah Blah...People die all the time....blah blah blah....Our immune system is more effective than any vaccine...blah blah blah...vaccinated people are dying too, so see--it doesn't matter or not if you're vaccinated.

It was like a Facebook/Instagram page had come to life and I couldn't deactivate my account to get away from it.

Honestly, I'm not sure what's worse when it comes to reinserting myself into society, the anxiety of potentially contracting Delta or having to listen/deal with all this ignorance.

[revo]

So the past couple of days interacting with Anti vaxxers and Covid deniers has been enlightening to say the least.

Hospitals get 39K if they claim a death was due to Covid...blah blah Blah...People die all the time....blah blah blah....Our immune system is more effective than any vaccine...blah blah blah...vaccinated people are dying too, so see--it doesn't matter or not if you're vaccinated.

It was like a Facebook/Instagram page had come to life and I couldn't deactivate my account to get away from it.

Honestly, I'm not sure what's worse when it comes to reinserting myself into society, the anxiety of potentially contracting Delta or having to listen/deal with all this ignorance.

I love these two. Then let's just stop cancer treatments!

[Sour Masher]

So the past couple of days interacting with Anti vaxxers and Covid deniers has been enlightening to say the least.

Hospitals get 39K if they claim a death was due to Covid...blah blah Blah...People die all the time....blah blah blah....Our immune system is more effective than any vaccine...blah blah blah...vaccinated people are dying too, so see--it doesn't matter or not if you're vaccinated.

It was like a Facebook/Instagram page had come to life and I couldn't deactivate my account to get away from it.

Honestly, I'm not sure what's worse when it comes to reinserting myself into society, the anxiety of potentially contracting Delta or having to listen/deal with all this ignorance.

There is evidence emerging that natural immunity is up to 13 times more effective than vaccination against Delta. However, those who have been vaxxed and have gotten sick are in the gold tier for immunity, and those who have been vaxxed who get sick are far, far less likely to get seriously ill. So, the vaccinations do a lot of good, even when they don't stop people from getting the virus. Still, I fear most people will get this thing at least once. Still, I'd much rather get it after being vaxxed than not.

Still, when I talk to an anti-vaxxer, I try to know the latest info and acknowledge whatever partial truth they may be clinging to. I hope it gives me more cred in trying to convince them to vax, but, so far, I don't think I've convinced anyone, except my MIL, who, I am sure, would have gotten vaxxed eventually anyway.

[Kevin Seitzer]

There is evidence emerging that natural immunity is up to 13 times more effective than vaccination against Delta.

I've seen conflicting studies on this. I've seen the one that I believe you are referencing, but I've seen some that show the opposite, e.g., this one:

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html

I've also seen studies that show that Pzifer loses effectiveness faster than Moderna (which uses a higher dose) or AstraZeneca (which uses the adenovirus).

[Bene Futuis]

Still, when I talk to an anti-vaxxer, I try to know the latest info and acknowledge whatever partial truth they may be clinging to. I hope it gives me more cred in trying to convince them to vax, but, so far, I don't think I've convinced anyone, except my MIL, who, I am sure, would have gotten vaxxed eventually anyway.

[chancellor]

I've seen conflicting studies on this. I've seen the one that I believe you are referencing, but I've seen some that show the opposite, e.g., this one:

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html

I've also seen studies that show that Pzifer loses effectiveness faster than Moderna (which uses a higher dose) or AstraZeneca (which uses the adenovirus).

All true, and the conflicting studies appear to be legit databases/methods/reviews. There's already legal challenges to vaccine mandates with a key issue being level of natural immunity if a person has had COVID. First one I saw was Zywicki v George Mason, and George Mason settled and gave Zywicki the exemption he was looking for.

[Sour Masher]

I've seen conflicting studies on this. I've seen the one that I believe you are referencing, but I've seen some that show the opposite, e.g., this one:

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html

I've also seen studies that show that Pzifer loses effectiveness faster than Moderna (which uses a higher dose) or AstraZeneca (which uses the adenovirus).

I am not sure they are in conflict. I think most data was favoring vaccine vs natural immunity until the Delta variant flipped it.

[madducks]

48 year-old boxer Oscar De La Hoya who had been training for a comeback has been hospitalized with COVID.

[MagSeven]

So the past couple of days interacting with Anti vaxxers and Covid deniers has been enlightening to say the least.

Hospitals get 39K if they claim a death was due to Covid...blah blah Blah...

Technically they are correct about the $39K Covid payment. However, that is only for Medicare patients and Medicare requires TONS of documentation for any type of special upcoding. These people think that providers can just go ahead and say all their patients have Covid to get the extra windfall. No legitimate doctor or hospital would jeopardize their Medicare certifications by illegally giving a Covid diagnosis. Medicare audits annually, and they have no problems recouping overpayments from incorrect coding. In addition, if Medicare decides that the incorrect coding was done intentionally, licenses can be suspended or revoked, and providers with Medicare patients typically have Medicare as a high percentage of it's payor base.

[Sour Masher]

Since there are not enough opposing viewpoints in here, I feel like playing devil's advocate at the moment, to present perspectives others may hold but are not sharing here. To be clear, I am not claiming these arguments as my own, but I do think they warrant more consideration and discussion than they are often given on the left, by others and by me. So, here are a couple of assumptions/postulations and let's see if it leads to substantive discussion and possibly evidence that verifies or refutes them.

Assumption 1: Vaccination has overwhelmingly been proven to be by far the more effective approach to stopping a disease and saving lives than treatments after the fact.

Postulation 1: Because of this, and because of an underlying assumption about the selfishness or simplemindedness of the American people, there has emerged a tacit agreement (or maybe an overt one) between left-leaning media and science officials to marginalize, dismiss out-of-hand, or fearmonger about treatments for COVID, not because those concerns are valid in every case, but instead, very often, because of the larger concern that validating treatments undermines vaccination and/or is a cynical kneejerk reaction to anything being touted on the right, which they assume is being pushed for financial gain or to simply undermine vaccination efforts.

Assumption 2: Donald Trump and Trump acolytes are primarily motivated not by truth but political alignment and so those are the left are extremely skeptical of any and all attacks/claims made by him against others.

Postulation 2: Because of this, the left has reacted with its own tribalism, defending on principal those who Trump attacks, and can be blinded to the possibility that while Trump and others on the right may be attacking the person or concept for selfish, political reasons, by sheer coincidence, it is possible that those people or ideas have legitimate cause for scrutiny that the left ignores, for fear of playing into the hands of propagandists on the right. Two examples: the Anthonys. One example of this might be the early dismissal of questions about how Cuomo handled nursing homes early in the pandemic, and subsequent defending of him after allegations of improper behavior emerged. Another might be the protectionism and aversion to examine the decisions, advice, and claims of Anthony Fauci (who has, it should be noted, devoted his life to helping others, and has gotten death threats for it lately). But are legitimate questions about his early advice about the efficacy of masks, and his more recent seemingly demonstrably false claims about US gain of function research funding being overlooked on the left? Have the previous, early and seemingly unfair and politically motivated attacks on him now shielded him from legitimate critique and questioning?

Anyone else got any other arguments that are not very easily dismissed as horse poop from the center or left? So much of what we discuss here is so obviously a question of the right vs the wrong that it just leads to us all agreeing to some degree or another. It would be interesting if we had some folks putting forth arguments that are less easily dealt with. I thought Gregg's recent eagle egg comment in the abortion thread warranted response and further discussion, as it seemed to reveal an inconsistency in thought on part of pro-conservationist, pro-choice people, but it went no where, aside from a silly joke I made to lighten the mood.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Since there are not enough opposing viewpoints in here, I feel like playing devil's advocate at the moment, to present perspectives others may hold but are not sharing here. To be clear, I am not claiming these arguments as my own, but I do think they warrant more consideration and discussion than they are often given on the left, by others and by me. So, here are a couple of assumptions/postulations and let's see if it leads to substantive discussion and possibly evidence that verifies or refutes them.

Assumption 1: Vaccination has overwhelmingly been proven to be by far the more effective approach to stopping a disease and saving lives than treatments after the fact.

Postulation 1: Because of this, and because of an underlying assumption about the selfishness or simplemindedness of the American people, there has emerged a tacit agreement (or maybe an overt one) between left-leaning media and science officials to marginalize, dismiss out-of-hand, or fearmonger about treatments for COVID, not because those concerns are valid in every case, but instead, very often, because of the larger concern that validating treatments undermines vaccination and/or is a cynical kneejerk reaction to anything being touted on the right, which they assume is being pushed for financial gain or to simply undermine vaccination efforts.

Assumption 2: Donald Trump and Trump acolytes are primarily motivated not by truth but political alignment and so those are the left are extremely skeptical of any and all attacks/claims made by him against others.

Postulation 2: Because of this, the left has reacted with its own tribalism, defending on principal those who Trump attacks, and can be blinded to the possibility that while Trump and others on the right may be attacking the person or concept for selfish, political reasons, by sheer coincidence, it is possible that those people or ideas have legitimate cause for scrutiny that the left ignores, for fear of playing into the hands of propagandists on the right. Two examples: the Anthonys. One example of this might be the early dismissal of questions about how Cuomo handled nursing homes early in the pandemic, and subsequent defending of him after allegations of improper behavior emerged. Another might be the protectionism and aversion to examine the decisions, advice, and claims of Anthony Fauci (who has, it should be noted, devoted his life to helping others, and has gotten death threats for it lately). But are legitimate questions about his early advice about the efficacy of masks, and his more recent seemingly demonstrably false claims about US gain of function research funding being overlooked on the left? Have the previous, early and seemingly unfair and politically motivated attacks on him now shielded him from legitimate critique and questioning?

Anyone else got any other arguments that are not very easily dismissed as horse poop from the center or left? So much of what we discuss here is so obviously a question of the right vs the wrong that it just leads to us all agreeing to some degree or another. It would be interesting if we had some folks putting forth arguments that are less easily dealt with. I thought Gregg's recent eagle egg comment in the abortion thread warranted response and further discussion, as it seemed to reveal an inconsistency in thought on part of pro-conservationist, pro-choice people, but it went no where, aside from a silly joke I made to lighten the mood.

I'll bite.

First, to Gregg's Eagle egg statement. Eagles are endangered, when Humans start to trend toward extinction, you'll see similar legislation protecting Eggs/Sperm etc. No response from me because it was not an accurate analogy.

Anthony's. There was plenty of pushback on Cuomo from the Left regarding BOTH his handling of the Eldercare/Covid issues AND even MORE toward his sexual assault charges--so I don't see that your claim that those on the Left defended him as accurate. But I may have missed someone doing so, those issues being a year and a half apart. Fauci, Unless you expect everyone in charge of everything to be perfect, you can forgive his early mistake about masks and if not, applaud him for recognizing, admitting and correcting that same mistake. He absolutely Parsed the Gain of Function issue and though didn't technically lie, did obfuscate the issue. Yes they funded GOF research--No it wasn't GOF research on the Covid virus which is Covid-19. He's been pretty spot on through this whole thing and done pretty well given the fact he had to bite his tongue quite a bit through the first year of the pandemic. I don't see the Left ignoring it at all, to date--ONLY Democrats have resigned when confronted with these charges/situations. Unless you can point out someone on the Right who's been charged with incidents similar to Cuomo and Franken stepping down, cuz I can't recall one in the recent past doing so. I don't see the left looking past much of anything, at least not in this forum.

Trump. I can't really answer your question as I am of the belief, well you know what I believe.

I know you wanted a Right leaning rebuttal and I hope you get it. I also appreciate you trying to drag the conversation back into the middle and hope it becomes more inclusive. Good luck in your endeavor.

[Sour Masher]

I know you wanted a Right leaning rebuttal and I hope you get it. I also appreciate you trying to drag the conversation back into the middle and hope it becomes more inclusive. Good luck in your endeavor.

I do, but it is a fool's errand, so I will take what I can get .

I sometimes create an imaginary middle-right position in my head that I idealize as the GOP I want rather than the radical, extremist terrorist/insurrection party we have right now (not that I think most main street Republicans are that, but a scary number seem to be at the moment). I believe any "side" benefits from pushback and critique, if it is coming from an informed and well-meaning place. That is not what we often get, though.

I kinda lament that the Trump era has made me so repulsed by right-wing ideology that I have cut myself off from engaging folks on that side. I only talk politics with one right-winger friend, and I find it hard to really get into it, because he has a lot of personal baggage he carries against the left as a general concept, as he was born in Cuba where his father was imprisoned by the Castro admin, and it is almost genetically ingrained in him that the left=bad, and all roads leads to Castro, because he grew up in an extreme, perverted corruption of leftist ideology. It is hard for me to dismiss that experience, so I just try to differentiate it from what the left means in most places. But for him, when he sees Bernie Sanders, he sees the face of evil. And even more perplexing, when he sees Joe Biden, he sees a Bernie Sanders puppet, so there is no centrist Dem that does not carry the fear of a slippery slope to communist Cuba, so he supports the right, even when it was Trump, someone he saw as a blowhard and crass, but a far lesser evil than Darth Sanders and his Squad Stormtroopers.

[Bene Futuis]

Biden announces a vaccine mandate for federal employees and also corporations who employ more than 100 people.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Biden announces a vaccine mandate for federal employees and also corporations who employ more than 100 people.

LA Public schools announces Vaccine mandate for all eligible students.