Biden's Cabinet.

[Teenwolf]

Yes local norms - the rest of what I wrote explained it. Use of the word "Indian" in Canada is different than use in the US.

https://indiancountrytoday.com/news/deb-haaland-swearing-in-details-announced

Indian Country Today. Are you going to go tell them they should stop calling themselves Indians?




You are applying your own local norms to someone who doesn't live in Canada. It doesn't work like that.

Haaland calls herself Native American. That's completely unrelated to "local usage". Use the term she's chosen.

This isn't difficult.

[Ken]

Haaland calls herself Native American. That's completely unrelated to "local usage". Use the term she's chosen.

This isn't difficult.

And in the US, the term Indian is one that is acceptable for identification of indigenous people. I understand that's not the case in Canada, but appropriating your angst doesn't make sense. Some tribes in the US have rejected the use of the term "Native American" as well.

It's actually a very difficult topic.

But the point is that Bene was celebrating diversity.

November is Native American Heritage month, and a good time to honor the legacy of our ancestors, but every day we should stop to think about our country's beginning and that the United States would not exist if not for a great deal of sacrifice, blood, and tears by Indian Tribes across the country.

-- Deb Haaland

[Teenwolf]

And in the US, the term Indian is one that is acceptable for identification of indigenous people. I understand that's not the case in Canada, but appropriating your angst doesn't make sense. Some tribes in the US have rejected the use of the term "Native American" as well.

It's actually a very difficult topic.

But the point is that Bene was celebrating diversity.



-- Deb Haaland

I've heard elderly Indigenous people refer to themselves or other Indigenous people as "Indian" many many times, as its the term they are most accustomed to, that they grew up with. They have the right to refer to themselves in any way they deem fit. As colonizers, I think we owe them the respect to use the most up-to-date terms that convey the highest level of respect.

If you think referring to Indigenous people as "Indians" is the most respectful way for any white person to do so in 2021, I'm here to say you're just plain wrong, and using quotes from Indigenous people referring to other Indigenous people as "Indian" proves nothing. We have different expectations to uphold as colonizers.

[Ken]

I've heard elderly Indigenous people refer to themselves or other Indigenous people as "Indian" many many times, as its the term they are most accustomed to, that they grew up with. They have the right to refer to themselves in any way they deem fit. As colonizers, I think we owe them the respect to use the most up-to-date terms that convey the highest level of respect.

If you think referring to Indigenous people as "Indians" is the most respectful way for any white person to do so in 2021, I'm here to say you're just plain wrong, and using quotes from Indigenous people referring to other Indigenous people as "Indian" proves nothing. We have different expectations to uphold as colonizers.

Your argument was that she refers to herself as Native American. It turns out that she uses both terms. Just like Bene did.

Again, this is why the GOP wins races it shouldn't. Ridiculous infighting on the blue side.

[Teenwolf]

I believe the terms "African American" and ""American Indian" have both fallen out of favour due to the possessiveness of the 'America' part. People are subjects of the will of America.

I think the term "Indian" is offensive as a celebration of the legacy of Columbus' genocide that's inherent within the mislabeling. I would certainly reject the term if I were an Indigenous person. But I'm not, so I simply try to use the most respectful term possible, which is whatever the minority in question refers to themselves as.

[Teenwolf]

Your argument was that she refers to herself as Native American. It turns out that she uses both terms. Just like Bene did.

Again, this is why the GOP wins races it shouldn't. Ridiculous infighting on the blue side.

Read your own quote! You're claiming that saying "Indian tribes" is referring to herself?! She's talking about tribal groups with certain guaranteed treaty rights, on a macro level. Some of those groups actually still use "Indian" within their organizations namesake, such as the Bureau of Indian Affairs, so it makes sense that she would use the term in that context. She's not saying "as an American Indian" or anything like that.

[Ken]

I believe the terms "African American" and ""American Indian" have both fallen out of favour due to the possessiveness of the 'America' part. People are subjects of the will of America.

I think the term "Indian" is offensive as a celebration of the legacy of Columbus' genocide that's inherent within the mislabeling. I would certainly reject the term if I were an Indigenous person. But I'm not, so I simply try to use the most respectful term possible, which is whatever the minority in question refers to themselves as.

I do understand where you are coming from, and I also understand that you are biased by your surroundings. In Canada it is indeed an offensive term, and I understand why you feel that way.

However, the term Indian is *not* offensive to some indigenous Americans in the US though, and in fact for some it is their preferred identification. Telling them what they should want to be called is a little offensive honestly if you want to go there. Great white savior from Canada telling people what they should want to be called... comes off a little rough.

[Ken]

Read your own quote! You're claiming that saying "Indian tribes" is referring to herself?! She's talking about tribal groups with certain guaranteed treaty rights, on a macro level. Some of those groups actually still use "Indian" within their organizations namesake, such as the Bureau of Indian Affairs, so it makes sense that she would use the term in that context. She's not saying "as an American Indian" or anything like that.

I don't agree, she was talking about indigenous people, a group that she belongs to, and she referred to them as "Indian".

I think we can at least agree that this is not black and white, in some regions the term is celebrated. So chastising Bene for using the term was ridiculous.

[Ken]

Full disclosure, I have a decent amount of Comanche ancestry. Direct line to Quanah Parker (Parker was my mother's last name and we have traced it back). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanah_Parker

[Teenwolf]

I don't agree, she was talking about indigenous people, a group that she belongs to, and she referred to them as "Indian".

I think we can at least agree that this is not black and white, in some regions the term is celebrated. So chastising Bene for using the term was ridiculous.

Where is the term "Indian" used and in fact "celebrated"?

I already gave an explanation as to why some Indigenous people use the term "Indian". If you heard an 80 year old Black person refer to "colored people", you'd have a completely different reaction than you would to hearing a white person say the same thing. Both terms are outdated and shouldn't be used by white people in 2021, but we can understand why some people in their 60's and older still occasionally use the outdated terms they grew up with.

[Ken]

Where is the term "Indian" used and in fact "celebrated"?

In the US.

https://www.census.gov/prod/2/gen/96arc/ivatuck.pdf

Persons identifying as American Indians were asked which of the following terms they preferred to describe themselves: American Indian, Alaska Native, Native American, Some other term, or No preference. Over 50% chose the term American Indian or Alaska Native as the one they preferred, but a sizable number preferred Native American.

Many tribes in the US identify as American Indian and are proud of their Indian heritage.

Russell Means had an interesting take on the etymology of the word Indian as well.

I've presented plenty of evidence that the term Indian is acceptable in the US, but you don't want to hear it. I get it, you live in a place where that's a very negative term, and it makes sense. Hopefully you've learned something new about the difference in indigenous culture between Canada and the US ( I know for me, your posts about the situations where you live are very enlightening and I learn something new every time ). Perhaps not, and that's fine.


Lets spend the rest of the time on this topic celebrating Haaland.

[Teenwolf]

In the US.

https://www.census.gov/prod/2/gen/96arc/ivatuck.pdf

Many tribes in the US identify as American Indian and are proud of their Indian heritage.

Russell Means had an interesting take on the etymology of the word Indian as well.

I've presented plenty of evidence that the term Indian is acceptable in the US, but you don't want to hear it. I get it, you live in a place where that's a very negative term, and it makes sense. Hopefully you've learned something new about the difference in indigenous culture between Canada and the US ( I know for me, your posts about the situations where you live are very enlightening and I learn something new every time ). Perhaps not, and that's fine.


Lets spend the rest of the time on this topic celebrating Haaland.

I'm not debating that within Indigenous communities, some refer to themselves as Indian. I already stated that it's a generational thing.

Why are you so eager to carry on the tradition of the genocidal Columbus, calling Indigenous people "Indian", that's just ridiculous. You know it's origin. Why defend it and why use it in 2021? If you think it's out of respect, thats misguided. Elderly Indigenous and Black and Asian people who refer to themselves in outdated and racist language are simply using the terms society labeled them with for their upbringing, they're not saying that others should use the same language. That's the same in Canada or the US. Most of them would react very differently to their grandparent using racially coded language than a white person they don't know. That's the point. If you know there's updated and completely inoffensive terms, why not use those?

[Ken]

I'm not debating that within Indigenous communities, some refer to themselves as Indian. I already stated that it's a generational thing.

Why are you so eager to carry on the tradition of the genocidal Columbus, calling Indigenous people "Indian", that's just ridiculous. You know it's origin. Why defend it and why use it in 2021? If you think it's out of respect, thats misguided. Elderly Indigenous and Black and Asian people who refer to themselves in outdated and racist language are simply using the terms society labeled them with for their upbringing, they're not saying that others should use the same language. That's the same in Canada or the US. Most of them would react very differently to their grandparent using racially coded language than a white person they don't know. That's the point. If you know there's updated and completely inoffensive terms, why not use those?

OK Jesse.

[Teenwolf]

OK Jesse.

Just so you know, as you seem to be unaware, many Indigenous people these days get upset about white people claiming tribal connections.

You might want to stop doing that, as well as stopping using the term of the former Cleveland baseball club.

How exactly do you know about your Indigenous heritage? Elizabeth Warren claimed she had proof for many years and was proven a li.... ahem... mistaken. Her evidence was family photos. She claimed her grandmother experienced anti-Indigenous racism because of her dark skin and high cheekbones (uh... for a white lady). I'm sure your family has birth certificates and stuff though, right? I'm seriously curious how and why white people would pursue this, so any enlightenment you can provide would be much appreciated.

As a white guy with Hungarian and Polish roots, I have zero feelings of connection to my ancestors, but I know many minorities have a greater interest, as their ancestors were enslaved or killed. My wife did a DNA test out of interest, but my interest level is nil. This is the perspective I'm approaching these questions from.

Do you feel like this genetic correlation gives you added empathy for their plight? In what ways do you demonstrate that added empathy if you're unwilling to consider something as simple as using less offensive terminology?

Thanks for the back and forth, but we're talking over each other. If you don't feel comfortable with the personal questions I won't begrudge you. Cheers.

[Ken]

Just so you know, as you seem to be unaware, many Indigenous people these days get upset about white people claiming tribal connections.

You're telling me I don't get to know who my great, great, great grandfather is?
OK Jesse.

You might want to stop doing that, as well as stopping using the term of the former Cleveland baseball club.

You might want to stop ignorantly telling me what is appropriate for me, because in this case you are very, very wrong.

How exactly do you know about your Indigenous heritage? Elizabeth Warren claimed she had proof for many years and was proven a li.... ahem... mistaken. Her evidence was family photos. She claimed her grandmother experienced anti-Indigenous racism because of her dark skin and high cheekbones (uh... for a white lady). I'm sure your family has birth certificates and stuff though, right?

You know very little about the local history here, but yes, there is massive documentation (the relative in question has a county and city named after him, there's no lack of historical documentation). I've talked to a direct relative who is a tribal member about it at length.

I'm seriously curious how and why white people would pursue this, so any enlightenment you can provide would be much appreciated.

All of my direct descendants are deceased outside of my dad, however, I had an interest in knowing where I came from and my family kept documentation. It had nothing to do with a particular race, I have many other ancestors who come from many other places and nationalities as well, and I've also researched that.

If you are interested in this conversation further, please PM, my ancestry has nothing to do with the celebration of Biden's appointees. Suffice to say, you don't know anything about my ancestry and your assumptions are very, very wrong.

Do you feel like this genetic correlation gives you added empathy for their plight? In what ways do you demonstrate that added empathy if you're unwilling to consider something as simple as using less offensive terminology?

EDIT: No, not at all. I don't identify with that culture. It's just odd that you are coming across with this great white Canadian hero stance saving the indigenous people from their preferred naming. If they were opposed to it, I would agree with you. In some cases they are, in some they are not. It is not unified, and some are opposed to "Native American".

Our life experiences are very different. What you've labelled as "misguided" is actually appropriate, and I'm sure some things that I think are misguided are appropriate for you.

You've taken a broad brush stance here, unfortunately the reality is that you should not have chastised Bene. That's what it comes down to. The moral high ground stance you tried to take is ridiculous.