Shit Show 2020

[gcstomp]

The 2 camps took months to hammer out detailed rules for the debates. My question, was it trump strategy all along to from the start, say f the rules, interrupt at every single Biden answer, talking over not just Biden but moderator. Or was this a display of trump inability to adhere to the bargained rules, such self control would be a betrayal of trump intent all along, to diminish process and participants at every turn.

[Sour Masher]

The 2 camps took months to hammer out detailed rules for the debates. My question, was it trump strategy all along to from the start, say f the rules, interrupt at every single Biden answer, talking over not just Biden but moderator. Or was this a display of trump inability to adhere to the bargained rules, such self control would be a betrayal of trump intent all along, to diminish process and participants at every turn.

I think it was his plan. He did not strike me as a man so brimming with frustration that he could not control himself. He struck me as a man with a plan. Frankly, he struck me as calmer, more prepared, and more on point than during any of the HRC debates. He steamrolled both Biden and Wallace, and it all seemed purposeful. He has stuck with his plan all along, so it should not be surprising now. He won in 2016 by leaning into his base, and he did it again here. He made no attempt to appeal to that small sliver of undecided. They would be totally turned off by his performance. But his base, they are going to love what he did. He gave them so many dog whistles their ears are bleeding.

The other clear strategy for Trump was in cleaving off the far left from Biden. Again, he clearly ceded that small sliver in the middle to Biden tonight, but I think he effectively spoke to his followers, and he may have succeeded in melting off progressives that are foolish enough to fall for his tactic. He cornered Biden on several issues--health care and the environment most notably--to be explicitly deviate from Sanders' plans toward the middle in a way that is sure to disappoint progressives. He seemed gleeful every time he did it. I think against Sanders he would have gone for the middle, but with Biden, he is clearly ceding the middle and trying to get him to lose the left.

Frankly, I begrudgingly have to admit, he likely deployed the best strategy available to him. At much as I loathe the man and everything he stands for, I think he has found his best path to victory--peel off progressives from Biden, shore up his own base, and if all else fails, try to steal the election, with violence if needed.

[DMT]

The "never Biden crowd" has already had their 15 seconds.

[Sour Masher]

The "never Biden crowd" has already had their 15 seconds.

Anyone on the left who does not vote for Joe Biden, because he is not progressive enough, given the stakes of this election and the wannabe dictator he is facing, is an idiot. I am not usually that blunt, but there it is. Joe Biden may not be the man you wanted in office, but he is facing the man we MUST remove from office. Every single progressive needs to vote for Joe Biden--I don't care if you are mad that he is against defunding the police or won't support M4All or the Green New Deal. Every single American who cares about our democracy needs to vote for Joe Biden, regardless of what your ideal political platform is and how far short of it Joe Biden falls. The right choice could not be more stark in 2020.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Anyone on the left who does not vote for Joe Biden, because he is not progressive enough, given the stakes of this election and the wannabe dictator he is facing, is an idiot. I am not usually that blunt, but there it is. Joe Biden may not be the man you wanted in office, but he is facing the man we MUST remove from office. Every single progressive needs to vote for Joe Biden--I don't care if you are mad that he is against defunding the police or won't support M4All or the Green New Deal. Every single American who cares about our democracy needs to vote for Joe Biden, regardless of what your ideal political platform is and how far short of it Joe Biden falls. The right choice could not be more stark in 2020.

I think this debate removed any possibility of that happening.

[madducks]

At their next debate, Trump's microphone needs to have an on/off switch that is controlled either by the moderator or the TV producer.

[Sour Masher]

At their next debate, Trump's microphone needs to have an on/off switch that is controlled either by the moderator or the TV producer.

Good idea, but I am not sure it is even a good idea for Biden to debate him again. Trump made a mockery of the process, just as he has of the presidency.

[umjewman]

I think it was his plan. He did not strike me as a man so brimming with frustration that he could not control himself. He struck me as a man with a plan. Frankly, he struck me as calmer, more prepared, and more on point than during any of the HRC debates. He steamrolled both Biden and Wallace, and it all seemed purposeful. He has stuck with his plan all along, so it should not be surprising now. He won in 2016 by leaning into his base, and he did it again here. He made no attempt to appeal to that small sliver of undecided. They would be totally turned off by his performance. But his base, they are going to love what he did. He gave them so many dog whistles their ears are bleeding.

The other clear strategy for Trump was in cleaving off the far left from Biden. Again, he clearly ceded that small sliver in the middle to Biden tonight, but I think he effectively spoke to his followers, and he may have succeeded in melting off progressives that are foolish enough to fall for his tactic. He cornered Biden on several issues--health care and the environment most notably--to be explicitly deviate from Sanders' plans toward the middle in a way that is sure to disappoint progressives. He seemed gleeful every time he did it. I think against Sanders he would have gone for the middle, but with Biden, he is clearly ceding the middle and trying to get him to lose the left.

Frankly, I begrudgingly have to admit, he likely deployed the best strategy available to him. At much as I loathe the man and everything he stands for, I think he has found his best path to victory--peel off progressives from Biden, shore up his own base, and if all else fails, try to steal the election, with violence if needed.

Judging from his Twitter feed this morning, that is exactly what he was trying to do.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1311297684540620801

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1311294017469063171

[gcstomp]

Tough position, Biden campaign has already, repeatedly, said they would participate in remaining debates. But is it good idea?

trump will further use platform to as forcefully as he can undermine the vote process, to say the mail in ballots should be left out and we need to declare winner election night, to yell over any kind of response that Biden is in middle of answering. Literally not once was Biden able to have a 2 minute uninterrupted span, with trump releasing a torrent of lies and nonsense. To what end? Well, you could almost hear the cackling red hat wearing clan supporters shouting give em hell Donald.

No one had a greater night than fascist groups, white power groups thinly veiled as bringing back traditional values. The Proud Boys immediately celebrated the president’s comment in posts on social media platform Telegram. One Proud Boys group added the phrase “Stand Back, Stand By” to their logo. Another post was a message to Trump: “Standing down and standing by sir.” https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-donald-trump

The entire MAGA theme fits neatly into To join the group, members must make an oath: “I am a proud western chauvinist, I refuse to apologise for creating the modern world.” While the group maintains it is not racist, and simply want to hark back to traditional “"western” values, its worldview incorporates elements of the “white genocide” conspiracy theory. Members are pro-gun rights, against feminism and gender equality, and take a libertarian stance on issues such as welfare.

Again and again, we are witnessing birth of textbook fascism eating away at inclusive america in favor of what is being sold as a return "traditional" Norman Rockwell still scenes, as in make america white again, with wife in kitchen, btw.

[Teenwolf]

Anyone on the left who does not vote for Joe Biden, because he is not progressive enough, given the stakes of this election and the wannabe dictator he is facing, is an idiot. I am not usually that blunt, but there it is. Joe Biden may not be the man you wanted in office, but he is facing the man we MUST remove from office. Every single progressive needs to vote for Joe Biden--I don't care if you are mad that he is against defunding the police or won't support M4All or the Green New Deal. Every single American who cares about our democracy needs to vote for Joe Biden, regardless of what your ideal political platform is and how far short of it Joe Biden falls. The right choice could not be more stark in 2020.

Progressives have already aligned with Joe Biden, speaking about the importance of the election with more urgency than 2016. Progressives talk about fascism a lot, so fascism out in the open has motivated the far left. I can only think of 2-3 fringe voices on the "progressive left" who make their money on the black pill "Democrats and Republicans are the same" shtick because they lack nuance. Jimmy Dore stands out as the last one trying to depress turnout, although a lot of his points are true.

Progressive strategy is to support Biden's election and then hammer him for material results. The real question is, if Biden is elected will you support the progressives who demand he fight for left wing policies or will you support the Lincoln Project and the mainstream media who will shun protestors as anarchists and anti-American agitators and as Russians, and dismiss their demands of Biden? I'm not confident centrists will fight for anything given their willingness to blame progressives for everything while heaping praise on shitbags like never-Trumper grifters.

How do you think the Lincoln Project folks feel about Trump rushing a SC pick after RBG's death? You think they're upset by his hypocrisy and trashing norms and guidelines? You think they're upset about a conservative minority of the country controlling policy for the next few decades? Their ads cater to Democrats not Republicans, they're just looking for seats at the table in a Biden administration. Don't fall for their shell game.

[Sour Masher]

Progressives have already aligned with Joe Biden, speaking about the importance of the election with more urgency than 2016. Progressives talk about fascism a lot, so fascism out in the open has motivated the far left. I can only think of 2-3 fringe voices on the "progressive left" who make their money on the black pill "Democrats and Republicans are the same" shtick because they lack nuance. Jimmy Dore stands out as the last one trying to depress turnout, although a lot of his points are true.

Progressive strategy is to support Biden's election and then hammer him for material results. The real question is, if Biden is elected will you support the progressives who demand he fight for left wing policies or will you support the Lincoln Project and the mainstream media who will shun protestors as anarchists and anti-American agitators and as Russians, and dismiss their demands of Biden? I'm not confident centrists will fight for anything given their willingness to blame progressives for everything while heaping praise on shitbags like never-Trumper grifters.

How do you think the Lincoln Project folks feel about Trump rushing a SC pick after RBG's death? You think they're upset by his hypocrisy and trashing norms and guidelines? You think they're upset about a conservative minority of the country controlling policy for the next few decades? Their ads cater to Democrats not Republicans, they're just looking for seats at the table in a Biden administration. Don't fall for their shell game.

I hope with all my being this gets to be a discussion we get to have come January. I hope progressives get the opportunity to push and challenge Biden, the next president, to address the things Trump failed to address. And for my own mental wellbeing, I hope Biden's victory is clear on or very soon after election night.

[Teenwolf]

Biden was better than I expected, but still needs serious improvement. I thought Biden was too petty in whining about Trump's interruptions and sniping at him while claiming to be above it. Biden needs to stop responding to trolling, basically. When he spoke directly to the camera and ignored Trump, he was much better than when he gave in to the pettiness, but he lost his focus far too frequently. I feel Biden was probably only focused and effective 15-20% of the debate, Trump more like 5-10%, but Biden must do better, and it shouldn't be a large ask that he outperform Trump by a bigger gap in the final 2 debates.

Instead of not debating Trump again, I think Biden should analyze the obvious strategies Trump is utilizing and develop more effective ways to counter. Dems instinct is always to tuck tail and run. They bring plastic forks to knife fights. Time to stand up and show you're better rather than opting out and saying "I AM better, I don't need to show you". That would be a disaster.

Trump's line about "I've accomplished more in 47 months than you have in 47 years" was a banger for independents. It was the headline on the cover of the National Post (biggest National Canadian newspaper). Trump's attacks on Biden's crime bill were ignored, just no response. He needs one, just lie, make some appeal to progressive views on non violent drug offences. Trump made vague claims about pardons and reforms that made him seem left of Biden on criminal justice, and it felt like Biden had no counter argument to refute it. Am I misremembering? Trump is also able to outflank Biden on the military, as he keeps claiming that he's gotten the US out of dumb wars without being checked by the media or Biden. When Trump inevitably attacks Biden's Iraq and Afghanistan blunders and claims he's the one ending dumb wars, even though its a lie, I dont see Biden having effective counters. I should re-watch the debate for clarity, but it was too painful, so forgive me for passing.

I want to credit 1jay for something he is right about in his analysis. I am scared of 3rd party spoilers because Libertarians collected 3-4x as many votes as Greens in 2016. It looks like both Greens and Libertarians will see far less support than 2016, which will only help Trump. Trump's right wing populist framing is going to collect some of those Libertarians. I hope Biden comes back with some prepared lines that work better for the next debate.

[Teenwolf]

I hope with all my being this gets to be a discussion we get to have come January. I hope progressives get the opportunity to push and challenge Biden, the next president, to address the things Trump failed to address. And for my own mental wellbeing, I hope Biden's victory is clear on or very soon after election night.

Its a nice fantasy, but we should prepare for the much more likely scenario of a prolonged battle playing out over weeks and possibly several states.

Why isn't Biden running on election integrity and talking about the ways the Republicans are attempting to steal the election? That would seem crucial to me at this time. Trump has told his soldiers "stand back and stand by", and they're ready. The best way to address the tactics Republicans are openly admitting they will use to rig and steal the election would be to introduce comprehensive election integrity plans that address the issues at hand. He needs to prepare Democrats to fight like hell.

[chancellor]

I can’t believe all y’all gave up two hours of your life to watch this. Especially with playoff baseball on.

[umjewman]

I can’t believe all y’all gave up two hours of your life to watch this. Especially with playoff baseball on.

Call it morbid curiosity/my wife made me. It was a horrible, horrible mistake. But, then again, I didn't have to watch the Yankees win, so hooray?