A restaurant in Stillwater, OK

[GwynnInTheHall]

With all due respect, comparing family to a whole race is not a simple concept nor is it accurate in any way.

How about this, women can use the B word in context between each other, but men cannot use it when referring to a woman without causing offense.

[Gregg]

I cant help it.

Why should Black people be disallowed to use the n-word? That sounds super fucked up to me, policing the language of the subjects of literal enslavement.

I understand why Black people using the word would make white people uncomfortable. Because white people were the slave owners, this history is unsettling to hear thrown back in our faces, with the former slaves co-opting the language of their oppressors. I accept my discomfort, and I recognize it as miniscule in comparison to the daily discrimination faced by POC. For that reason, I think its appropriate and even necessary for Black people to use the word as a reminder of our shared history.

So if I understand where we are today.

It is correct for POC to use the n word in conversation.

It is not correct for them to use it in a sign for a business.

It is correct for an Inuit to use the E word in conversation.

It is not correct for them to use it in a sign for a business.

Is this correct so far?

[Sour Masher]

With all due respect, comparing family to a whole race is not a simple concept nor is it accurate in any way.

AAs have a shared heritage of enslavement, oppression, degradation, and abuse. How they deal with that depends on the individual and the cultural context of that individual. In many places many people rebrand the N-word, once used as a way to mark them as less than human, as a mark of self-affirmation. It means many things in many contexts to many different people. The only thing I know for certain as a member of the race that once used it to mark AAs as animals fit to be bought, sold, and abused, is it is not my word to use. The second thing I know, almost as certain, is it is not my place to tell those who have reclaimed it that they are not allowed to do that. That it makes me uncomfortable for them to do that. That it confuses me, because I don't understand why they can use it and I cannot.

They have the right to use it, because they were branded with it, and it remains a silent thought, and sometimes an out loud slur, for far too many who branded them with all of the negative denotations and connotations of that word. They can say it, because all of that exists, and all of us must own it, and they get to remind us of that any time they want to, or they get to reframe that in any way they want to. It is theirs now. They took it with them with their freedom. We cannot say it, because our usage of it was in naming an other, a less than, a slave, a nothing. We lost it when we accepted AAs were not that which we labeled them as when we used that word. Or at least most of us accepted that. Sadly, some have not, and most of them now identify themselves with Donald Trump, who blows his whistle and loves to hear them howl.

[Kevin Seitzer]

So if I understand where we are today.

It is correct for POC to use the n word in conversation.

It is not correct for them to use it in a sign for a business.

It is correct for an Inuit to use the E word in conversation.

It is not correct for them to use it in a sign for a business.

Is this correct so far?

It's about trying to care for and respect others. That's the root of it. The rules you listed seem to do a decent job of capturing that spirit, but I'm sure someone could find exceptions to them if they tried or find a way to still be disrespectful or inconsiderate while following them. But they would be a good place to start, I think, don't you?

[Gregg]

It's about trying to care for and respect others. That's the root of it. The rules you listed seem to do a decent job of capturing that spirit, but I'm sure someone could find exceptions to them if they tried or find a way to still be disrespectful or inconsiderate while following them. But they would be a good place to start, I think, don't you?

I absolutely believe it is about caring for and respecting others.

Caring and respect means to sometimes put down the right to be right.

I did not comment on whether or not I thought the sign should be taken down. I merely asked some questions.

I do not think that anyone should use the n word ever. It is not respectful or caring. That does not make it illegal (in the case of everyone) or even unacceptable (by POC).

I view/viewed the sign as the same as the use of the words. If you follow this thought, my questions would make more sense (I think/hope).

[TranaGreg]

It's about trying to care for and respect others. That's the root of it. The rules you listed seem to do a decent job of capturing that spirit, but I'm sure someone could find exceptions to them if they tried or find a way to still be disrespectful or inconsiderate while following them. But they would be a good place to start, I think, don't you?

well said - I was thinking along the same lines - Gregg, you seem to be trying to find the "rules" by which specific slang can be used - but context is critical, you can't come up with hard & fast rules for this kind of stuff. Even in the legal world it's recognized that laws don't cover all situations, that's why there are judges & juries & trials (it's not solely to see if the person violated the law as written).

[Mithrandir]

Was this already posted?

https://www.newson6.com/story/5f2832397e36330c0766b9a9/eskimo-joes-announces-it-will-keep-original-name-logo-

[Gregg]

well said - I was thinking along the same lines - Gregg, you seem to be trying to find the "rules" by which specific slang can be used - but context is critical, you can't come up with hard & fast rules for this kind of stuff. Even in the legal world it's recognized that laws don't cover all situations, that's why there are judges & juries & trials (it's not solely to see if the person violated the law as written).

Yes, but only in the context of this thread and the discussion of it.

I am quite clear on my respect and caring for others in my walking around life.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Yes, but only in the context of this thread and the discussion of it.

I am quite clear on my respect and caring for others in my walking around life.

There is a social/community aspect to respect and caring for each other that goes beyond just your individual personal encounters with people. I'm not necessarily saying that Eskimo Joe's falls into that for you, given that I don't think you live in Oklahoma. But there is a responsibility that we have for each other that extends to how we organize our communities.

[heyelander]

With all due respect, comparing family to a whole race is not a simple concept nor is it accurate in any way.

I meant it as the "why do you get to use the word but I don't"

[DMT]

Gregg, I appreciate your willingness to ask tough questions, but white people really have no ability to conceptualize what the N-word means to African-Americans. Therefore, the argument of "well if I can't use it then they shouldn't either"-which is really just the inverse of "if they're using it why can't I?"- is quite offensive. And, again, I'm not saying that's your argument.

[Gregg]

There is a social/community aspect to respect and caring for each other that goes beyond just your individual personal encounters with people. I'm not necessarily saying that Eskimo Joe's falls into that for you, given that I don't think you live in Oklahoma. But there is a responsibility that we have for each other that extends to how we organize our communities.

I can say I generally agree with you. I would add it starts with the individual. I/we may have to step out of how our communities decide to "organize" to stand up for what we believe is right.

I do not live in Oklahoma, I do not have any emotion on ....Joe's apart from the discussion on this board (does not mean I do not have an opinion).

I do think if ....Joe's was Inuit owned surrounded by a massive amount of Inuit people they just might be the community/authority to determine if it is ok to keep that name in their community.

Should a bunch of white guys from a baseball site even get a vote? Of course that does not mean we can't have an opinion and discuss it here.

[Gregg]

Gregg, I appreciate your willingness to ask tough questions, but white people really have no ability to conceptualize what the N-word means to African-Americans. Therefore, the argument of "well if I can't use it then they shouldn't either"-which is really just the inverse of "if they're using it why can't I?"- is quite offensive. And, again, I'm not saying that's your argument.

Thank you sir. I can only try to conceptualize what it means as to what I have been told/or read as experienced by those that would know. I will never feel the way they do.

I can assure you that there is no bone in my body, no thought, no feel of me wanting to use the word ever. There is no jealousy of it being accepted and me missing out on something. There is so much negative history, pain, and death associated with it that it can never be ok for me.

It is hard for me to conceptualize why anybody would hate anybody for the color of their skin. Yet I see it every day and know it exists.

[Sour Masher]

I do think if ....Joe's was Inuit owned surrounded by a massive amount of Inuit people they just might be the community/authority to determine if it is ok to keep that name in their community.

Well, sure, but why go that far into the hypothetical to find an instance where we should support the owners for keeping the name? If that were the situation, it would be a different discussion for sure--heck, it wouldn't even be a discussion, really, as if it were an Inuit owned business serving a mostly Inuit population, and Inuits in the community it served were all or mostly cool with the name and logo depicting them, why, wouldn't it make the outsider white folks demanding change look like quite the virtue-signaling bunch of clueless whiners, appropriating outrage that is not theirs to have. I'm sure most would agree with you in that hypothetical situation, and it wouldn't be the first time a bunch of liberal white people tried to play savior when it wasn't their business to do that.

But that isn't the situation here, I don't think....or, is it? Anyone know who came up with the petition to change it? Was it just white people? If so, Gregg has a point here. All I know is two white dudes came up with this name and logo to express they had the coldest beer in town, so if the community they are appropriating takes offense at their logo and name, they should change it. Simple.

ETA: The petition was started by college kids. It seems to be led by POC, but not Inuits. They do use as support for their efforts editorials from Inuits that do not appreciate the name "Eskimo" and have petitioned to see it change for other teams and businesses. Those links include reasoning and explanations by various Inuit organizations for why they want the term changed. But it does seem in this one case, the initiative was taken by non-Inuits first.

[Gregg]

Well, sure, but why go that far into the hypothetical to find an instance where we should support the owners for keeping the name? If that were the situation, it would be a different discussion for sure--heck, it wouldn't even be a discussion, really, as if it were an Inuit owned business serving a mostly Inuit population, and Inuits in the community it served were all or mostly cool with the name and logo depicting them, why, wouldn't it make the outsider white folks demanding change look like quite the virtue-signaling bunch of clueless whiners, appropriating outrage that is not theirs to have. I'm sure most would agree with you in that hypothetical situation, and it wouldn't be the first time a bunch of liberal white people tried to play savior when it wasn't their business to do that.

But that isn't the situation here, I don't think....or, is it? Anyone know who came up with the petition to change it? Was it just white people? If so, Gregg has a point here. All I know is two white dudes came up with this name and logo to express they had the coldest beer in town, so if the community they are appropriating takes offense at their logo and name, they should change it. Simple.

ETA: The petition was started by college kids. It seems to be led by POC, but not Inuits. They do use as support for their efforts editorials from Inuits that do not appreciate the name "Eskimo" and have petitioned to see it change for other teams and businesses. Those links include reasoning and explanations by various Inuit organizations for why they want the term changed. But it does seem in this one case, the initiative was taken by non-Inuits first.

These were my questions:

If the owner was Inuit and wanted to call the place Eskimo Joe's would that be OK?

Who are the people complaining about the name?

This lead me to exaggerate on this page to clarify to others as to why I asked them.

Thank you for the extra homework. Did it by any chance mention the college? Was curious to see if it was local.