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  • #46
    Originally posted by chancellor View Post
    And I'll provide the respectfully disagreeing view to ITC.

    Princeton professor, Robert George, summed it up best, when he noted: "Their [Evangelicals and Catholics] support for him [Trump] is based on a prudential judgment that the overall situation for the common good would be made much worse if he were to lose to one of the Democrats. And they fear--with justification--that the consequences for themselves and their religious institutions would be dire if such a thing were to happen."

    Sour Masher is absolutely correct about abortion, and I'll again respectfully disagree with ITC here. I do not find it short-sighted to support a politician - no matter how flawed - that will best protect the defenseless souls slain by the tens of thousands - possibly hundreds of thousands - on a grisly yearly basis. For Christians who believe life begins at conception, that God knows us even in the womb (Psalm 139:13-16, Jer. 1:4-5), choosing a more imperfect leader versus a more apocalyptic death toll from abortion is easy calculus. In my personal case, abortion is not a sole litmus test for my vote, but for many Christians it is, and I certainly respect and appreciate their view. That's not short-sighted. That's preventing grisly murder against those wholly unable to defend themselves. Short of sowing the seeds of salvation, I can think of little that is more Christian than attempting to save those unable to protect themselves.

    Keeping it relatively brief, if there was any doubt that Christians should be concerned about themselves and their religious institutions, I'll simply point to two relatively recent instances where the mask has come off should Trump lose. The first is Elizabeth Bartholet's anti-homeschooling treatise coming out in Harvard Magazine's May/June edition. Dr. Bartholet condemns the "conservative Christian wing" of homeschoolers in particular, and recommends that homeschooling ought to be banned, or at least so heavily regulated that only an extreme few would be able to qualify.

    The second, and most telling, was the CNN town hall event where Don Lemon asked Beto O'Rourke if churches and religious institutions should lose their tax-exempt status if they opposed same-sex marriage, his answer was: "Yes. There can be no reward, no benefit, no tax break for anyone or any institution, any organization in America that denies the full human rights and the full civil rights of every single one of us. And so as president, we're going to make that a priority and we are going to stop those who are infringing upon the human rights of our fellow Americans."

    Beto is a Democrat who falls much closer to Joe Biden on the ideological spectrum than Bernie Sanders. It's no great jump of logic to realize that a significant part of the party that opposes Donald Trump will fervently attempt to strip away freedoms and benefits that churches have had for as long as memory serves in our country.
    So in order to protect the unborn, God sent an orange buffoon to save them? I still can't get my head around it.
    “There’s no normal life, Wyatt, it’s just life. Get on with it.” – Doc Holliday

    "It doesn't matter what you think" - The Rock

    "I borked the entry." - Some dude on the Internet

    Have I told you about otters being the only marine animal that can lift rocks?

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Steve 2.0 View Post
      So in order to protect the unborn, God sent an orange buffoon to save them? I still can't get my head around it.
      If you're a hard core, five point predestinational Calvinist, yes, that'd be your POV. I'm not, so I don't believe in the "sent" concept.

      I may have misunderstood your question. If you're asking why a Christian would vote for Trump, I believe I've briefly laid out a case why that would be the case. If you're asking why God would allow a person like Trump to be in power, that's a whole different issue. That's a far more complex answer, and I'd defer to CS Lewis, and his book "The Problem with Pain" as the best starting point.
      I'm just here for the baseball.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by chancellor View Post
        If you're a hard core, five point predestinational Calvinist, yes, that'd be your POV. I'm not, so I don't believe in the "sent" concept.

        I may have misunderstood your question. If you're asking why a Christian would vote for Trump, I believe I've briefly laid out a case why that would be the case. If you're asking why God would allow a person like Trump to be in power, that's a whole different issue. That's a far more complex answer, and I'd defer to CS Lewis, and his book "The Problem with Pain" as the best starting point.
        I may have been unclear. Sorry.

        The "sent" part is my understanding of how Christians view the US. God protects us, so he sends the president. (Unless it's a Democrat). To be clear, I'm an atheist and I think Trump is in the running for worst president ever and also for one of the worst people ever.

        I just don't see how someone who claims to follow Jesus can also follow Trump. To me they are completely opposite of each other. I don't remember Jesus calling anyone Lyin' Ted or talking about grabbing 'em by the pussy.
        “There’s no normal life, Wyatt, it’s just life. Get on with it.” – Doc Holliday

        "It doesn't matter what you think" - The Rock

        "I borked the entry." - Some dude on the Internet

        Have I told you about otters being the only marine animal that can lift rocks?

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Steve 2.0 View Post
          I may have been unclear. Sorry.

          The "sent" part is my understanding of how Christians view the US. God protects us, so he sends the president. (Unless it's a Democrat). To be clear, I'm an atheist and I think Trump is in the running for worst president ever and also for one of the worst people ever.

          I just don't see how someone who claims to follow Jesus can also follow Trump. To me they are completely opposite of each other. I don't remember Jesus calling anyone Lyin' Ted or talking about grabbing 'em by the pussy.
          here's my interpretation - it's because at the end of the day, the choice that the voter has to make isn't a choice of who is the best person out of 330 million people to lead the country ... it's a choice of who is the best out of 2.

          it's the process that puts that scenario in play ... one would hope that the process would filter the best to the top 2 positions, but it doesn't seem to play out that way.
          It certainly feels that way. But I'm distrustful of that feeling and am curious about evidence.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by TranaGreg View Post
            here's my interpretation - it's because at the end of the day, the choice that the voter has to make isn't a choice of who is the best person out of 330 million people to lead the country ... it's a choice of who is the best out of 2.

            it's the process that puts that scenario in play ... one would hope that the process would filter the best to the top 2 positions, but it doesn't seem to play out that way.
            I'm not a huge Hillary fan but wouldn't she have been better than Trump. Hell, I don't know shit and I'd be better than Trump. Just because I'd be willing to admit I don't know shit!
            “There’s no normal life, Wyatt, it’s just life. Get on with it.” – Doc Holliday

            "It doesn't matter what you think" - The Rock

            "I borked the entry." - Some dude on the Internet

            Have I told you about otters being the only marine animal that can lift rocks?

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by umjewman View Post
              I disagree, “Ken.” If that is even your real name. Which it’s not. It’s Steve.
              any explanation beyond "I disagree" is extraneous.
              I'm not expecting to grow flowers in the desert...

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Ken View Post
                I'll disagree - I thought ITC's post was good, and your retort was good as well. But SourMasher's followup is valid, and it hasn't been "hashed through in gory detail". If the rest of the morality question is put to the side for the sake of the abortion issue that's one thing, but it doesn't apply in the primary. So Steve's question is still lacking an answer for that case - why would the evangelical right get behind a guy who was so obviously morally bankrupt when there were other options (who would be similar on the abortion issue)
                I will answer for Chance, based on his past answers, and also role play here, as Trump supporters here don't wanna defend him outright anymore on this forum--it is all about winning, by any means necessary, backing anyone who can do it. And fight fire with fire, dirt with dirt. Get down to the level of your opponent to win, to set your agenda. The GOP tried to play nice, putting up reasonable, polite moderates in McCain and Romney against Obama. They were not willing to go low and get dirty and they lost. Well, it was time for a change. They wanna play rough? Let's put up a guy who is willing to say or do whatever needs to be said or done to get elected, even if that means being crass, and even if that means pandering to some of the more unsavory members of the party. He is rough around the edges, and maybe isn't as tactful or articulate as he should be, but the fact is his agenda is a conservative agenda. He got SC justices that conservatives wanted appointed. He focused on cutting taxes for corporations and created a booming economy. He cut through needless red tape and regulations that helped the economy. All of that matters more than his personal life, his pettiness, or his antics.

                And scene. And, of course, I think all of that is wrong, completely wrong. First, I think Obama won because he was more characteristic. Swift-boating him would not have worked. They tried. It didn't stick. The GOP didn't lose those elections because they put up nice guys. Second, I think other candidates would have beaten HRC in 2016. She has some of the highest unfavorables of anyone. GOP voters were gonna come out against her for a non-Trump candidate. Electing Trump was an act of trolling in denial of or support of his pandering to the very worst of the party. I think he will be one of the worst stains on our legacy as a country in our history. The turn to Trump was a poison pill that I think made the GOP a worse party and a loser in the long run. The GOP will see this and move away from his type at some point, but it may take years for them to recover. He is everything bad I've been saying he is for years and the country and world will be a better place when his time in power has passed.
                Last edited by Sour Masher; 05-01-2020, 12:00 PM.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Christian Conservatism has always been a sham and Trump has exposed it beyond any doubt. They absolutely should lose their tax status, and hopefully will after the Democrats fucking bulldoze them in Nov.
                  If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
                  - Terence McKenna

                  Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)

                  How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    We care above all about unborn babies yet oppose any efforts to help them once they're born. Utterly laughable.
                    If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
                    - Terence McKenna

                    Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)

                    How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by DMT View Post
                      We care above all about unborn babies yet oppose any efforts to help them once they're born. Utterly laughable.
                      Once they are out of the womb, they are no longer society's problem. Then they are just the mothers' responsibility. If these women couldn't raise them, they shouldn't have been raped and impregnated by their fathers or uncles or boyfriends to begin with!

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Sour Masher View Post
                        Once they are out of the womb, they are no longer society's problem. Then they are just the mothers' responsibility. If these women couldn't raise them, they shouldn't have been raped and impregnated by their fathers or uncles or boyfriends to begin with!
                        And, of course, I'm being extreme with that example, but it is just as extreme to talk about women being flippant about aborting late term babies. Most people find both extremes unacceptable, but both sides seem to characterize the opposition as embodying those extremes.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Sour Masher View Post
                          And, of course, I'm being extreme with that example, but it is just as extreme to talk about women being flippant about aborting late term babies. Most people find both extremes unacceptable, but both sides seem to characterize the opposition as embodying those extremes.
                          Remember Trump talking about abortion? He's a moron.
                          “There’s no normal life, Wyatt, it’s just life. Get on with it.” – Doc Holliday

                          "It doesn't matter what you think" - The Rock

                          "I borked the entry." - Some dude on the Internet

                          Have I told you about otters being the only marine animal that can lift rocks?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Steve 2.0 View Post
                            I may have been unclear. Sorry.

                            The "sent" part is my understanding of how Christians view the US. God protects us, so he sends the president. (Unless it's a Democrat). To be clear, I'm an atheist and I think Trump is in the running for worst president ever and also for one of the worst people ever.

                            I just don't see how someone who claims to follow Jesus can also follow Trump. To me they are completely opposite of each other. I don't remember Jesus calling anyone Lyin' Ted or talking about grabbing 'em by the pussy.
                            Hmmm...I'm not sure where the "God protects us" part came from, but Pat Robertson's not even that kooky. I'm fully confident it doesn't represent the views of the overwhelming majority of Evangelical Christians, much less more mainstream Christians. As a nation, we have no greater claim on God's protection than, say, New Zealand. Or Lesotho. Or Tajikistan. Should anyone so claim, there's no scriptural support for such a claim.

                            As for the president being "sent", there is scriptural support for that point of view ("The authorities that exist have been established by God", Rom 13:1), but as you've noted, if a Christian should hold that view, it means that Presidents Obama and Clinton were sent just as equally as GWB and Trump, and the warning in Romans 13:2 holds for a president of either party. As I expounded on in an earlier thread, my view of Romans 13 is different - it's a call to civic duty, which is something that changes with time.

                            As for "following" Trump, because one votes for a person doesn't mean they "follow" them. If I read ITC's post correctly, I'd deduct that he will not vote for Trump, but instead vote for Biden. But that doesn't mean ITC "follows" Joe Biden; I'd say his post clearly shows what/who he follows, and it isn't a politician. Nor do I believe that all of the beliefs and actions of an individual are imputed on another individual simply because they voted for them. There was a post by B-Fly that bestrides that Colossus much better than I from the old board. But allow me an example:

                            DMT, who I often disagreed with on political issues, but who I greatly respect, is supporting Joe Biden in the upcoming election. It is certainly possible that Joe Biden sexually assaulted at least one woman. If DMT votes for Biden, does that mean he's a rape apologist? Or some secret supporter of rapists and sexual assaulters? No, of course not, it's absurd. To the core. He's voting for Biden because he believes Biden will do a better job bringing forth legislation and exerting executive power on issues that matter dearly to him.
                            I'm just here for the baseball.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by chancellor View Post
                              Hmmm...I'm not sure where the "God protects us" part came from
                              One nation under God.

                              Why do people thank God when they survive a storm? (esp. when others may not have?) Couldn't God have stopped the storm?

                              Keep in mind that I live in the Bible belt. Your mileage may vary.
                              “There’s no normal life, Wyatt, it’s just life. Get on with it.” – Doc Holliday

                              "It doesn't matter what you think" - The Rock

                              "I borked the entry." - Some dude on the Internet

                              Have I told you about otters being the only marine animal that can lift rocks?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by chancellor View Post
                                Hmmm...I'm not sure where the "God protects us" part came from, but Pat Robertson's not even that kooky. I'm fully confident it doesn't represent the views of the overwhelming majority of Evangelical Christians, much less more mainstream Christians. As a nation, we have no greater claim on God's protection than, say, New Zealand. Or Lesotho. Or Tajikistan. Should anyone so claim, there's no scriptural support for such a claim.

                                As for the president being "sent", there is scriptural support for that point of view ("The authorities that exist have been established by God", Rom 13:1), but as you've noted, if a Christian should hold that view, it means that Presidents Obama and Clinton were sent just as equally as GWB and Trump, and the warning in Romans 13:2 holds for a president of either party. As I expounded on in an earlier thread, my view of Romans 13 is different - it's a call to civic duty, which is something that changes with time.

                                As for "following" Trump, because one votes for a person doesn't mean they "follow" them. If I read ITC's post correctly, I'd deduct that he will not vote for Trump, but instead vote for Biden. But that doesn't mean ITC "follows" Joe Biden; I'd say his post clearly shows what/who he follows, and it isn't a politician. Nor do I believe that all of the beliefs and actions of an individual are imputed on another individual simply because they voted for them. There was a post by B-Fly that bestrides that Colossus much better than I from the old board. But allow me an example:

                                DMT, who I often disagreed with on political issues, but who I greatly respect, is supporting Joe Biden in the upcoming election. It is certainly possible that Joe Biden sexually assaulted at least one woman. If DMT votes for Biden, does that mean he's a rape apologist? Or some secret supporter of rapists and sexual assaulters? No, of course not, it's absurd. To the core. He's voting for Biden because he believes Biden will do a better job bringing forth legislation and exerting executive power on issues that matter dearly to him.
                                Great post.

                                I didn't want either candidate in the last election. I would pray for either to do a good job for our country.

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