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  • #16
    Originally posted by GwynnInTheHall View Post
    If you're inferring I'm childish in my demands, well then we can't have a conversation about this. But again--I will give you the benefit of the doubt. We can absolutely Demand what we think is right--how people should act, how we should be treated and as you stated--though it might not be a short term win, it is effective over the long hall.

    How can demanding people act with honesty and integrity be wrong? No matter HOW you say it?

    Let's be clear on this thread--it was an attempt to foist the ills of Trumps presidency on people like me who spoke out against HRC and the DNC. My responses are essentially--hey assholes who still won't blame Hillary for losing to this moron--This isn't Bernie's fault, nor those who supported him--It's everyone who capitulated their ethics to support HRC rather than make it clear that more was expected from her. It her fault for never admitting she cheated or apologizing to Sanders for how she and the DNC subverted the election. The extent of Trumps damage is 100% on the GOP and THIER capitulation and abandonment of Integrity and ethics.

    I can and will demand things to be right, ethical and just--do I expect things to happen immediately or to change peoples minds this way--I'm not an idiot- so No, people are motivated to listen in many ways, not just mine or yours and we do seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to what we think is the best way to communicate things.

    Maybe it's what I do for a living and the mindset I exist in daily. As a WPT/WSOP poker tournament director, my #1 priority is to protect the integrity of the game. The game has a set of rules (TDA) that are revised every 2 years and of those 70 plus rules (with subsets and on and on) MOST of them are in place to protect the integrity of the game. Cheats, Liars, Angle shooters ect will be removed from the Tournament--I am the guy that makes those decisions--I'm the final and Ultimate word. I have discretion to implement the rule or even rule contrary to the rules if I choose to do so--I don't think I've ruled contrary to the written intent on more than a handful of occasions over my career on the floor. I know the intent of these rules, why and how they were written because I'm a member of TDA, who writes the rule--friends with serval of the top TDs in the Business (who are also board members of TDA) and if I'm unsure of the exact ruling (poker can present some interesting situations) I have them all on speed dial should I need clarification or just to assure myself I made the right call.

    My life is about getting it right--doing the right thing-making sure others do the right thing-and punishing those who don't.

    I think that's it right there--I punish those who don't do the right thing and in my life--it's me who decides what that is.

    Does it lead to me being Mr. popularity? Nope--But you know what you get with me and can depend on me always being that guy.

    So yea--I thing we should demand people to act with integrity and never capitulate and that those who don't deserve what they get--in this instance Trump. He's their punishment, their penance and hopefully next time when they're faced with choosing Integrity over an easier/ more incremental/palatable choice--they'll demand Integrity and ethics--if not...well then, Enjoy 4 more years of Trump because you helped put him there.
    What you say in terms of a poker tournament makes sense to me. There are rules to follow, and if people don't follow them, the appropriate punishment, e.g. removal from the tournament, is enforced. That helps the poker tournaments run better for everyone. I don't think either politics or personal relationships work that way.

    In personal relationships, yes, it is good to enforce appropriate boundaries. If someone mistreats me and (depending on the situation) is not able to or not willing to address their mistakes, it may be healthy to cut them off or remove myself from the situation. That's not really the same as "punishing" them for breaking the rules. I agree that each person has to decide for themselves how best to do this. I don't agree with how you seem to be positioning yourself, which is as an arbiter who gets to assess when everyone else in your life has or has not lived up to an ethical code. I don't know to what extreme you take that, but if you take that too far, you could be a really miserable person to live with. Nobody wants to be constantly judged for every mistake they make by someone else who has positioned themselves on a pedestal as a universal moral arbiter. In a poker tournament, sure. In relationships, no.

    In politics, I think the "moral arbiter on a pedestal of righteouness" works even less well. There is a good/necessary place for prophets of truth--people who will lay out how the world should work and how we are falling short, calling us to be better than we are. MLK Jr was great at this. People recognized the truth of what he was saying and were ashamed and either reacted strongly against him or were motivated to change. Jimmy Carter has become this in his later life. But MLK wasn't going around trying to punish everyone who disagreed with him, and Jimmy Carter isn't showing up on your or my doorstep "demanding" that we come build houses with him. Your emphasis on punishment of those who disagree with anything you believe strikes me as strange. You can cast it as an ethical battle where you are taking the high road and are more saintly than everyone else, but yikes, that's not likely to be true. Even MLK and Jimmy Carter are morally flawed. Everyone is.

    I think we should expect people to act with honesty and integrity and never change that standard. I don't know how we "demand" it or what we would "capitulate" to. Donald Trump is certainly not acting with honesty and integrity. I can "demand" he change it at the ballot box in November, but 5 million other people in Texas are going to overrule my "demand" on that count. I can never capitulate...how? By striving to live with honesty and integrity in my own life, for sure. By teaching my children to do the same, and by living with integrity in my work, yes. But I don't see any way for me personally to keep Donald Trump from doing what he will do. I can't "punish" him in any effective way, and turning that frustration around to try to punish my fellow Americans who vote for him seems twisted emotionally and ethically and also counterproductive (because it will alienate FAR more people than it will persuade).
    Last edited by Kevin Seitzer; 02-18-2020, 03:10 PM.
    "Jesus said to them, 'Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.'"

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Kevin Seitzer View Post
      Your emphasis on punishment of those who disagree with anything you believe strikes me as strange. You can cast it as an ethical battle where you are taking the high road and are more saintly than everyone else, but yikes, that's not likely to be true. Even MLK and Jimmy Carter are morally flawed. Everyone is.
      Not only is everyone flawed, but I'd suggest that the biggest struggle in moral judgement is that not everyone operates under the same set of morals. You can decide that your own morals are superior to others', but given enough time and exposure to other cultures it becomes apparent that your values don't make sense for them just as theirs don't make sense for you.

      And while this resonates most on the macro level, the same concepts apply on the micro level as well.

      That's not to say that we should just throw out the morals entirely. But making yourself the judge, jury, and executioner of someone else who doesn't follow the same set of values, is definitely strange, as you put it.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Kevin Seitzer View Post
        What you say in terms of a poker tournament makes sense to me. There are rules to follow, and if people don't follow them, the appropriate punishment, e.g. removal from the tournament, is enforced. That helps the poker tournaments run better for everyone. I don't think either politics or personal relationships work that way.

        In personal relationships, yes, it is good to enforce appropriate boundaries. If someone mistreats me and (depending on the situation) is not able to or not willing to address their mistakes, it may be healthy to cut them off or remove myself from the situation. That's not really the same as "punishing" them for breaking the rules. I agree that each person has to decide for themselves how best to do this. I don't agree with how you seem to be positioning yourself, which is as an arbiter who gets to assess when everyone else in your life has or has not lived up to an ethical code. I don't know to what extreme you take that, but if you take that too far, you could be a really miserable person to live with. Nobody wants to be constantly judged for every mistake they make by someone else who has positioned themselves on a pedestal as a universal moral arbiter. In a poker tournament, sure. In relationships, no.

        In politics, I think the "moral arbiter on a pedestal of righteouness" works even less well. There is a good/necessary place for prophets of truth--people who will lay out how the world should work and how we are falling short, calling us to be better than we are. MLK Jr was great at this. People recognized the truth of what he was saying and were ashamed and either reacted strongly against him or were motivated to change. Jimmy Carter has become this in his later life. But MLK wasn't going around trying to punish everyone who disagreed with him, and Jimmy Carter isn't showing up on your or my doorstep "demanding" that we come build houses with him. Your emphasis on punishment of those who disagree with anything you believe strikes me as strange. You can cast it as an ethical battle where you are taking the high road and are more saintly than everyone else, but yikes, that's not likely to be true. Even MLK and Jimmy Carter are morally flawed. Everyone is.

        I think we should expect people to act with honesty and integrity and never change that standard. I don't know how we "demand" it or what we would "capitulate" to. Donald Trump is certainly not acting with honesty and integrity. I can "demand" he change it at the ballot box in November, but 5 million other people in Texas are going to overrule my "demand" on that count. I can never capitulate...how? By striving to live with honesty and integrity in my own life, for sure. By teaching my children to do the same, and by living with integrity in my work, yes. But I don't see any way for me personally to keep Donald Trump from doing what he will do. I can't "punish" him in any effective way, and turning that frustration around to try to punish my fellow Americans who vote for him seems twisted emotionally and ethically and also counterproductive (because it will alienate FAR more people than it will persuade).
        If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
        - Terence McKenna

        Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)

        How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige

        Comment


        • #19
          I do think there are times when it is appropriate to shock people by putting the truth in their face. In my school and work life, I tried to do that a number of times when I was younger, and looking back on it with the wisdom of a few years, I realize that it was both inappropriate and ineffective, mostly because I didn't really understand the situations as well as I could have and because I was self-righteous about how I communicated.

          I can think of one situation later on in life where I did that, and it was both appropriate and effective. (I can also think of a situation that was appropriate but ineffective, and I don't regret what I did there.)
          "Jesus said to them, 'Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.'"

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Kevin Seitzer View Post
            Even MLK and Jimmy Carter are morally flawed. Everyone is.
            I have tried to make this point before. You do a great job here with it. So many want to see the good and the bad as wholly separate, and get uncomfortable with the reality that good people sometimes do bad and visa versa. But that is the reality. Some of our greatest truth tellers had flaws. The almost all have done bad things, thought bad thoughts, been wrong.

            This is the issue I think we are running into with the current Democratic field. Since everyone is flawed, we are easily able to pick apart those we were inclined not to support to begin with. I am not saying each candidate does not deserve this deconstruction, but I do hope when the dust settles, we pick the pieces back up of the one we tore down that survives, we put them back in place and we look at them in total. When we do, I believe everyone should see any one of them, in whole, is better than who we currently have in charge.

            Comment


            • #21
              And as I noted in the Election 2020 thread, sometimes even scumbag human beings can prove up to the task of implementing really good and important policies that make the world more equitable. Take LBJ and his domestic agenda.

              Lyndon Johnson was a racist. He was also the greatest champion of racial equality to occupy the White House since Lincoln.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by B-Fly View Post
                And as I noted in the Election 2020 thread, sometimes even scumbag human beings can prove up to the task of implementing really good and important policies that make the world more equitable. Take LBJ and his domestic agenda.

                http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/lyndon-jo...-rights-racism
                A great point. Hell, Lincoln was racist. He was also arguably our greatest president and the moral good he did is incalculable.

                Comment


                • #23
                  All great points and yes I am strangely punitive.

                  I do at times' hold myself up in that self righteous place.

                  I do expect Justice to work, people to act fairly and ethically and when they don't, I seek justice. One way or another, either through contrition or as I've said-- Punishment.

                  I've explained before why I am this way and no it's not conducive to vast amounts of people in my life, but those who are here--are quality.

                  I am not as absolute as my words come across on the internet--anyone who's met me in person will tell you that (even Ken)

                  Even with HRC and the DNC had they been-Contrite-Accountable-anything in the realm of we know we fucked up, give us a chance to get it right-- I would have done so--But they didn't and it's THAT type or transgression I want to see hellfire rained upon.

                  Bullies who never grew out of it, criminals who never rehabilitate, people who repeatedly do things that harm others----and I tend to put people who place their own self interests over the greater good in that category---I want them to change or suffer the ills they have foisted upon others.

                  This might mean I'm fucked up somehow, a sociopath, but I don't trust the system to mete out Justice fairly--So I scream into the netherworld of Karma or whatever is out there maintain the balance between good and evil and wish for the balances to be made even.

                  Here's how I think (and yeah this may bother you) During the movie 'Joker', when the Joker shoots DeNiro's character in the head, I said out loud--That's fucking great. I loved it. If that makes me bad in your minds-so be it, I'm comfortable with who I am and those close to me are as well.

                  FWIW, I don't always think Justice equals being shot in the head and yes, removing folks from my life is another way I deal with this.

                  Sorry if my ways offend.
                  If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

                  Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
                  Martin Luther King, Jr.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Offend isnt right word, your way doesnt offend so much as doesnt make sense. For sure, either Trump will win or a dem next election cycle. For sure, every dem running is a thousand times better, though all flawed, as every single person is, but easily a thousand times better to be President than Trump for the 99%.

                    Trump, daily we have new reports of how he is a flat out criminal in covering up his financials, going after his perceived enemies, and bailing out his criminal friends by using justice/Barr as an extension of presidency and of his cruelty to the poor and of people of color. The thing that repubs do that is exceptional is they row same direction for their candidate. Most repubs, most sane non nazis, have some major issues with Trump but justify their 90% support of him as it is either him or a dem. The most valuable skill one can have is to try to put oneself in another shoes, if not genuine empathy, at least try to understand different pov's. I have a hard time with understanding how repubs can support what is clearly an evil monster, until I remember the old xerox axiom of garbage in, garbage out, as in you wont get a clean copy if you are starting with flawed original. Most repubs have an entirely differing world view because they are exposed to different outlets, I hesitate to call FOX news as it is operationally a propaganda machine that factually is not nearly the same accuracy percent as MSNBC but it is most watched network. That, coupled with facebook which is the prime info source for the majority of americans, is structured to feed consumer more of what they have already expressed interest, self perpetuates misinformation bubbles to ever more dug in battle lines.

                    Now lets get dark. I hope that dems will row same direction in support regardless of who dem candidate vs Trump or else we deserve the fascist state that is being born right before our eyes. I believe we are less than 1 year away from major, widespread bloodshed and the kind of extended civil unrest that will paralyze day to day operation in any kind of normal way. Too many are too dug in and we have already witnessed the destruction of so many of our societal safeguards.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      If Trump is criminal, why were criminal charges not included in the impeachment? They literally made something up. No wonder it was thrown out.

                      J
                      Ad Astra per Aspera

                      Oh. In that case, never mind. - Wonderboy

                      GITH fails logic 101. - bryanbutler

                      Bah...OJH caught me. - Pogues

                      I don't know if you guys are being willfully ignorant, but... - Judge Jude

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by onejayhawk View Post
                        If Trump is criminal, why were criminal charges not included in the impeachment? They literally made something up. No wonder it was thrown out.

                        J
                        Not this garbage again.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Kevin Seitzer View Post
                          What you say in terms of a poker tournament makes sense to me. There are rules to follow, and if people don't follow them, the appropriate punishment, e.g. removal from the tournament, is enforced. That helps the poker tournaments run better for everyone. I don't think either politics or personal relationships work that way.

                          In personal relationships, yes, it is good to enforce appropriate boundaries. If someone mistreats me and (depending on the situation) is not able to or not willing to address their mistakes, it may be healthy to cut them off or remove myself from the situation. That's not really the same as "punishing" them for breaking the rules. I agree that each person has to decide for themselves how best to do this. I don't agree with how you seem to be positioning yourself, which is as an arbiter who gets to assess when everyone else in your life has or has not lived up to an ethical code. I don't know to what extreme you take that, but if you take that too far, you could be a really miserable person to live with. Nobody wants to be constantly judged for every mistake they make by someone else who has positioned themselves on a pedestal as a universal moral arbiter. In a poker tournament, sure. In relationships, no.

                          In politics, I think the "moral arbiter on a pedestal of righteouness" works even less well. There is a good/necessary place for prophets of truth--people who will lay out how the world should work and how we are falling short, calling us to be better than we are. MLK Jr was great at this. People recognized the truth of what he was saying and were ashamed and either reacted strongly against him or were motivated to change. Jimmy Carter has become this in his later life. But MLK wasn't going around trying to punish everyone who disagreed with him, and Jimmy Carter isn't showing up on your or my doorstep "demanding" that we come build houses with him. Your emphasis on punishment of those who disagree with anything you believe strikes me as strange. You can cast it as an ethical battle where you are taking the high road and are more saintly than everyone else, but yikes, that's not likely to be true. Even MLK and Jimmy Carter are morally flawed. Everyone is.

                          I think we should expect people to act with honesty and integrity and never change that standard. I don't know how we "demand" it or what we would "capitulate" to. Donald Trump is certainly not acting with honesty and integrity. I can "demand" he change it at the ballot box in November, but 5 million other people in Texas are going to overrule my "demand" on that count. I can never capitulate...how? By striving to live with honesty and integrity in my own life, for sure. By teaching my children to do the same, and by living with integrity in my work, yes. But I don't see any way for me personally to keep Donald Trump from doing what he will do. I can't "punish" him in any effective way, and turning that frustration around to try to punish my fellow Americans who vote for him seems twisted emotionally and ethically and also counterproductive (because it will alienate FAR more people than it will persuade).
                          Great post.

                          And just being Republican or Democrat does not make you evil in and of itself.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Gregg View Post
                            Great post.

                            And just being Republican or Democrat does not make you evil in and of itself.
                            Ha! Try telling that to my theater friends. Sometimes I think that one of the biggest mistakes of my theater life was admitting to having been such an apostate as to vote for a few Republicans over the years. And the reaction I get when I admit to having been a registered Repub for a while (because the Dems had clearly lost their minds) is amazing.

                            One of the things that has saddened me is how people can't leave their politics at the door. When I was growing up, my parents, both ardent Democrats (then), had friends who were Democrats and friends who were Republicans. They were friends who sometimes didn't agree politically, but when you kept the conversation away from politics, fine. I don't see as much of that now--too many people make politics, or political affiliation, some kind of good/evil confrontation, and will not even talk to anyone who doesn't agree with their every stance.

                            We should not be defined totally by the party for which we vote, and I for one have no desire to limit my interactions to those within a political echo chamber.
                            Only the madman is absolutely sure. -Robert Anton Wilson, novelist (1932-2007)

                            Faith is believing what you know ain't so. -Mark Twain, author and humorist (1835-1910)

                            A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.
                            -- William James

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by onejayhawk View Post
                              If Trump is criminal, why were criminal charges not included in the impeachment? They literally made something up. No wonder it was thrown out.

                              J
                              I would say rather that they fought the right fight using the wrong weapons. I think there were impeachable offenses there if they had looked hard enough--but these weren't them. Two and a half years, and those were the best charges they could devise???

                              It was a strategy that failed miserably for the Republicans in 1998 against President Clinton, and darned if the Democrats didn't do almost the same thing!
                              Only the madman is absolutely sure. -Robert Anton Wilson, novelist (1932-2007)

                              Faith is believing what you know ain't so. -Mark Twain, author and humorist (1835-1910)

                              A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.
                              -- William James

                              Comment

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