Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11

Thread: Grief.

  1. #1
    All Star GwynnInTheHall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Las Vegas!
    Posts
    5,323

    Grief.

    I've been thinking a lot about this subject and how people grieve differently. As I get older, loss becomes a more frequent visitor. Friends, family or friends and/or family of those who I am close to. I am always interested in how people handle loss, it's impact, the length of their grief, etc. etc. I do so because....I don't believe I grieve. At all, nor have I ever. I lost my Father at 17, when he suddenly died at the age of 39 and over the years as is to be expected, the hits kept on coming so much so that I am, at 58, the matriarch of our family. We recently lost our little sister, expected, but still too young to go from anyone's perspective and again--Though it's an obviously tragic and sad thing, I really didn't go through much emotionally other than a brief 'well shit' The only loss that I even believe I shed a tear for was my grandmother's and that was all of 2-3 minutes.

    Now some may say it's because I've always had to be or have taken upon myself to be the one who keeps it together when others fall apart, you know--the one who makes sure all the pragmatic stuff gets done because others are too broken up to function at times like these. That'd be understandable, but I don't know. Maybe I'm just callous, but then--I'm really not. believe I'm empathetic to loss. my own and others alike, I just never get emotional about it, nor does it linger in my mind or heart. I remember, but it doesn't affect me emotionally at least not in a significant way.

    I was wondering, is this unusual? How do some of you handle your grief? Have you had any similar experiences in that you really weren't too fazed by a loss? I guess the massive and very public grieving over Kobe got me thinking about the subject because I'd never react like I see some folks to a person I really didn't know passing, I didn't lose any sleep when Gwynn died and he is/was probably my favorite celebrity person ever.

    I really don't know.

    Just thinking out loud about it right now.
    If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

    Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
    Martin Luther King, Jr.

  2. #2
    Hall of Famer B-Fly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Montclair, NJ
    Posts
    47,775
    I'm not sure I can put my finger on how I handle grief. Knock on wood, I haven't lost a parent, spouse, sibling or child. I think those would be so much more dramatic than any other loss as those are the people you live(d) huge parts of your life with and in many ways structured your life and values around. I lost grandparents at age 3, 8, 14 and 23, and the last one was the one I probably took the hardest because I had developed a closer and more adult bond with my grandfather including an amazing road trip the two of us took to Cooperstown together. But I don't think I was "too fazed" in the sense of it impacting how I felt about the world and my life. There was an initial shock (he hadn't been ill when he died from a heart attack at age 74), and tears at the news and at the funeral, but then mostly positive feelings and memories. My aunt's death at age 60 was an even deeper shock. She was struck and killed while just walking along the sidewalk by an elderly driver who somehow lost control and jumped the curb. I cried quite a bit but was mostly composed and trying to support my father in his grief over his lost baby sister and my cousins over the loss of their mother.

    I definitely don't recall a celebrity death moving me to tears or other deep grief. I was much more affected by the news of the deaths of two children in my home town whose parents I just sort of barely knew (one drowned in a swimming pool; one from an asthma attack), but within the context of community grieving over the loss of a young child and connecting to it as a parent with similarly-aged kids. Those probably rattled me a lot more, psychologically, than even the loss of my grandfather or my aunt. And it's heightened by my own fears around my daughter's anaphylactic peanut and tree nut allergy. With Kobe, the news of the three teenage girls definitely hit me harder than the initial report about Kobe himself, but not the same way as I was hit by the death of kids in my own neighborhood/community.

  3. #3
    Welcome to the Big Leagues, Kid
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,162
    your ability to feel pain over loss is the most personal thing, but yes your dissociation with loss is at an odd setting. i am at an extreme as well, i have lost so much family, so many friends. you feel like you are alone and the party has moved on in some way, when i lost my mom it definitely broke something in my head to an extent that i have a what the hell who cares streak regarding much of life. most of the other losses while everyone was sobbing at service or whatever I have a much lower sadness setting.

    except when i lost my dog, a majestic american eskimo named Kavik who we had for 15 years and who was my near constant companion and was pure love, smartest and best dog that ever was. i was grief stricken like a cheesy movie, sobbed beyond my control for days, and beyond societal norms of how one should roll with things. for years, when someone mentioned getting another dog i came close to a rage and wanted to kill them where they stood for being such an asshat. but years later, i self repaired, got another precious dog, and maybe am ok enough to fit into the norms enough. its something, like you, that if examined by a therapist maybe speaks poorly on our emotional makeup, or maybe worse. yes, the public grieving for kobe, that is not something in my wheelhouse for a public figure, and seems to call to some bit that not everyone possesses. ones ability to feel pain in grief of loss is so personal a matter.

  4. #4
    All Star Ken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    5,234
    First off, sorry to hear you have had to deal with so much recently. I hate to see that.

    As far as grief, I can echo several points made above. I lost my mom when I was 20, it was not expected. She had health problems but I did not realize they were as complex and dangerous as they truly were. At the time, I was closer to her than anyone (only child, without a deep connection to dad who was not home often). I did not handle it well, and I was very emotional.

    Since then I've lost grandparents and aunts and uncles and friends. I have found myself much less emotional.

    I would agree with B-Fly that in situations where kids are concerned I definitely think of my own kids now and empathize, and that changes my perspective significantly.

    As far as celebrity deaths, I think a lot of the grief comes from people coming to terms with their OWN mortality. Those of us who have dealt with loss more have likely dealt with that more (obviously it's different on a case by case basis). But when a big celebrity dies in the prime of their lives it makes us feel more vulnerable, and some have not dealt with that. I'm with you, Kobe dying was sad on just a general level, but I identified more with his wife losing a husband and daughter than I did with Kobe himself. I didn't "grieve" Kobe's death or feel emotional about it at all, so I don't think you are alone.

  5. #5
    Journeyman TranaGreg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    downtown
    Posts
    4,573
    Interesting topic. Seems that true grief is a pretty rare experience. I would say for myself the only times I've really grieved were when my puppy died, and when my marriage died. When my dad died it was different - he had had alzheimers for 13 years so it was a gradual parting - his death truly was more of a relief (I can't say everyone in my family felt it that way, but I certainly did).

    I've come to think that logic doesn't always dictate how we'll react to these situations. If I'm reacting emotionally, that's okay ... & if I'm not, well, that should be okay too. It doesn't mean that they didn't mean as much ... my emotional reaction is affected by a whole bunch of factors, internal and external; there are often too many variables to make much sense of it.

  6. #6
    Welcome to the Big Leagues, Kid nullnor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    2,347
    With How Animals Grieve, she draws our attention to the specific case of grief, and relates story after story—from fieldsites, farms, homes, and more—of animals mourning lost companions, mates, or friends. ... From the time of our earliest childhood encounters with animals, we casually ascribe familiar emotions to them.






    https://mindmatters.ai/2020/01/quant...e-has-purpose/quantum-mechanics-shows-that-our-universe-has-purpose
    by Eric Holloway on January 31, 2020
    Not only can two physically separated particles influence each other, they can influence each other through time

    Every day, we say things like, “I drove to the store to get some milk” or “I put on my shoes to go for a walk.” In our world, everything happens for a reason, a human reason. This reason is the cause of the action. But, counterintuitively, it occurs after the action. We only get the milk after having driven to the store. We only go for a walk after putting on the shoes. In philosophy, this sequence is called “final causality.”

    The world of physics is quite different. There, nothing happens for a reason. Particles have no inclinations or goals. Particle A bumps into particle B because it was first bumped by particle C. All causes precede their effects. In philosophy, this sequence is called efficient causality.

    These two views of causality appear to be irreconcilable and they lead to deep mysteries. If everything is physical, then why is causality at the higher, human, level the complete opposite of causality at the lower, physical, level? Because final causality cannot come from its opposite, efficient causality, then something must intervene between the levels. That, in turn, implies that the human level cannot be reduced to the physical level.

    But we can also draw another conclusion: If the physical world consists only of efficient causality, how can we create computational intelligence (that is, thinking computers or hard AI) that exhibits final causality from physical processes?

    The answer is we cannot; thus, we can never embed human intelligence in computational intelligence.

    Recent open-access research on quantum physics adds an interesting new wrinkle to this dilemma: Not only can two physically separated particles influence each other, they can influence each other through time. That is, physicists can extend entangledness through time.

    In other words, two particles that are chronologically separated can influence each other such that particle A cannot be strictly said to have acted before or after particle B. Scientists believe that this result can be extended to causal entanglement. That means particle A can cause an effect in particle B after the effect has already occurred. Mind boggling.

    This state of affairs looks very similar to the final causality we discussed above. If the finding holds up, the scientists will have demonstrated that the physical realm is not immune to final causality.

    Does this resolve our old dilemma of how to account for our human ability to create final causes? It turns out that final causes can be part of the physical world after all. On that view, if we are only physical beings, we can still create final causes. But no. These quantum experiments actually imply the opposite conclusion.

    Instead of eliminating the mystery of final causality, the experiments deepen the mystery. There must be an observer in order for the entangled causality to occur and physical processes cannot observe anything. So the very occurrence of reverse causality at the physical level means there is top down influence from the human level to the physical level. Not only is quantum physics unable to explain human final causality, it cannot explain its own final causality by itself. Its final causality is a trickle down effect from the human level.

    And herein lies the rub. If human observers are necessary for physical final causality to occur, how do humans come to have the capability in the first place? This question points to a yet even higher source of final causality that extends beyond the human realm, and is responsible for the final causality that humans exhibit.

    Thus, these quantum physicists are showing that—far from final causality being a minor physical phenomena that can be explained away with an experiment—our entire universe is imbued with final causality within its very fabric and this final causality must come from some source beyond the universe.

    If you are interested in the quantum world and its implications, here are some other reflections you may enjoy:

    Quantum randomness gives nature free will. Whether or not quantum randomness explains how our brains work, it may help us create unbreakable encryption codes (Robert J. Marks)

    Can free will really be a scientific idea? Yes, if we look at it from the perspective of information theory (Eric Holloway)

    and

    Can physics prove there is no free will? No, but it can make physicists incoherent when they write about free will (Michael Egnor)
    Eric Holloway
    Fellow, Walter Bradley Center for Natural & Artificial Intelligence
    Eric Holloway has a Ph.D. in Electrical & Computer Engineering from Baylor University. He is a current Captain in the United States Air Force where he served in the US and Afghanistan He is the co-editor of the book Naturalism and Its Alternatives in Scientific Methodologies. Dr. Holloway is an Associate Fellow of the Walter Bradley Center for Natural and Artificial Intelligence.

  7. #7
    All Star The Feral Slasher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    6,154
    Quote Originally Posted by nullnor View Post






    https://mindmatters.ai/2020/01/quant...e-has-purpose/quantum-mechanics-shows-that-our-universe-has-purpose
    Recently an Orca in Puget sound lost her baby yet pushed the body around for 10 days or so, refusing to let go. It's amazing to realize the emotions and intelligence that animals have.

  8. #8
    Journeyman Teenwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Thunder Bay, ON, CAN
    Posts
    2,592
    Quote Originally Posted by The Feral Slasher View Post
    Recently an Orca in Puget sound lost her baby yet pushed the body around for 10 days or so, refusing to let go. It's amazing to realize the emotions and intelligence that animals have.
    It amazes me that so many non-vegans are able to develop extremely close relationships with their pets, while simultaneously eating meat and justifying it because those meat animals were never given a name. I like pets, dogsitting for parents right now actually, but I probably won't ever own one.

    Grief... I get hit hardest by suicides. I feel so much sadness in seeing people end their lives willingly. My uncle, who I was named after, killed himself when I was 2 years old. He was only 20. I knew of this at a young age and it always scared the hell out of me, especially since I knew he hung himself.

    As a senior in high school, I remember having a substitute teacher tell us about her recent 20 year high school reunion, saying the most surprising thing was how many people die in that time. In my last year of HS, in a class of about 200, shortly after that teacher's lesson, 3 kids from my class died. 1 via suicide in November over a relationship, 1 via car accident in January, and the last one died while high on mushrooms in the woods when a boulder he sat on rolled and he fell underneath and was crushed to death. The mushroom guy was a friend of my friends, but I wasn't too close with any of them. A girl I mentored was also killed the next September, hit crossing the highway walking to school. These all hurt, and all gave me a sense of fleeting mortality.

    A few years ago, my cousin was getting married. In the process of planning her wedding, the stress led to a big fight in which they decided to split up. Because my cousin had already sent out the wedding invitations, she felt trapped. So she got her hunting rifle and killed herself, on Valentine's Day. This one will never stop hurting my extended family.

    My step dad's dad is having medical issues and threatening to kill himself right now. He dropped his wife off at work, told her he was going to buy a rope and hang himself from the balcony. Police stopped him after he had bought the rope, close to his home, and he resisted arrest. He was locked in the psych ward for a week to get him straight, but I feel like he played possum to get out, and I think it's a bad decision that he was set free yesterday. My mom told him that it was selfish, without using that word, saying "the pain ends for you, but it goes on forever and ever for your family." I think his physical condition is like with CTE or other disorders that tell the one suffering to end it. Very scary. I never personally liked the guy much at all, really, but I desperately hope he gets it together for the sake of his and my extended family.

    In short, I'm terrible at grieving, completely shutting down. When my dad's wife was passing away from cancer, I had a few minutes to say goodbye. It felt so important to tell her that her reuniting with my dad was the best thing that ever happened to him (childhood crushes, Facebook connected them in their 50's)... I wanted to tell her that we loved her, and we would take care of my dad, and all of that, but I couldn't get out a single word. I still feel regret for never getting to say what I felt before she passed. I really suck at expressing myself sometimes, I'm sure to the surprise of everybody here.

  9. #9
    Welcome to the Big Leagues, Kid In the Corn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Suburbs of Minneapolis...close to Hornsby
    Posts
    1,654
    I think we have a poor definition of grief, and we tend to think that grief only happens after the tragedy.

    I take a very different view of grief, and believe that we always come to a time in any relationship (parent, child, spouse, pet, friend) where we start to see some detachment whether it be death or change in circumstance. I think for good mental health, we need to start grieving way before our loved on takes their last breath. I look at "fence posts" or signs of aging or change in relationship and process those, so when the inevitable happens I feel more prepared. That doesn't mean that I don't hurt from those experiences, but I have already processed the lose to some degree.

    An Examples:

    My dad, who is now 81, had a birthday celebration a few years ago. We were singing Happy Birthday. When we got done, he raised his arms up in celebration, and I noticed he had lost the muscle mass in his arms. My dad was never a hulking muscular man, but you could see that he was aging. I processed that night that my dad's years are limited. Tough to think about, but reality. Just the other day, I was stamping the back of checks for a deposit at work, and it drew me back to being a child and hearing my day pounding away on an ink pad finishing his work. I know at some point, after my dad passes, I will be finishing a deposit, and I will lose it.
    "Looks like I picked a bad day to give up sniffing glue.
    - Steven McCrosky (Lloyd Bridges) in Airplane

    i have epiphanies like that all the time. for example i was watching a basketball game today and realized pom poms are like a pair of tits. there's 2 of them. they're round. they shake. women play with them. thus instead of having two, cheerleaders have four boobs.
    - nullnor, speaking on immigration law in AZ.

  10. #10
    Journeyman Teenwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Thunder Bay, ON, CAN
    Posts
    2,592
    Quote Originally Posted by In the Corn View Post
    I think we have a poor definition of grief, and we tend to think that grief only happens after the tragedy.

    I take a very different view of grief, and believe that we always come to a time in any relationship (parent, child, spouse, pet, friend) where we start to see some detachment whether it be death or change in circumstance. I think for good mental health, we need to start grieving way before our loved on takes their last breath. I look at "fence posts" or signs of aging or change in relationship and process those, so when the inevitable happens I feel more prepared. That doesn't mean that I don't hurt from those experiences, but I have already processed the lose to some degree.

    An Examples:

    My dad, who is now 81, had a birthday celebration a few years ago. We were singing Happy Birthday. When we got done, he raised his arms up in celebration, and I noticed he had lost the muscle mass in his arms. My dad was never a hulking muscular man, but you could see that he was aging. I processed that night that my dad's years are limited. Tough to think about, but reality. Just the other day, I was stamping the back of checks for a deposit at work, and it drew me back to being a child and hearing my day pounding away on an ink pad finishing his work. I know at some point, after my dad passes, I will be finishing a deposit, and I will lose it.
    These hit me hard too. The smell of WD-40 will always take me back to my dad fixing up my bike for me, like magic. Now when I'm oiling my hedge trimmer, I cant help but get misty eyed. I got to work about 400 hours with him last year, and a lot of those little signs of him slowing down really hit me.

    Thanks for sharing.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •