Baseball Hall of Fame voting

[The Feral Slasher]

But not his heinie ! It's clean...yeah it's Charmin clean

But his underwear is on the floor....whatever

[Kevin Seitzer]

And I wouldn't know what to do with the character clause either if I were a Hall of Fame voter. I definitely think character, integrity, and sportsmanship matter. And the players' contributions to their teams depend on those things, too, insofar as how they affect their teammates and endear themselves to the fans. But judging all that from the outside can be tough. Even judging it from the vantage of a beat writer who had daily in-person access to the players can be tough. In fact, sometimes I think that can distort viewpoints. Not to mention that there can be a racial component to judging all of that at times. I'm glad it's not my job to pick the Hall of Fame.

[The Feral Slasher]

I'm pretty sure the Charmin bear's balls have been canceled.

Cbb camcelled....hmmm

[Sour Masher]

The verbiage is: “voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”

The middle part, "integrity, sportsmanship, character", is what's now commonly referred to as the character clause portion for HoF voters. It's very vague, obviously, but does not appear to be limited to actual or known cheating.

It is vague enough that the community could include other stuff, for sure. I am not a student of HOF history (despite having visited the HOF and learning a lot, like realizing the Chrles Radbourn's bronze is the coolest looking one by far), but has off the field character issues ever been a factor in voting before? I can think of lots of character flaws, many more universally acknowledged and agreed upon by a larger consensus, on display in the HOF. But times are changing, and I am not saying HOF criteria should not change with them, but has off the field stuff been historically considered? I thought the character stuff has historically pertained to cheating issues and to things like leadership and intangibles in the clubhouse, etc.

[Sour Masher]

But separate from off the field stuff, am I the only one that thinks Schilling's baseball resume is HOF worthy?

And less contentiously, I assume, I also think Scott Rolen should eventually get in. Anyone want to argue against him being a top 10 3bman all time (I mean true 3bman, not counting guys who played there some).

[chancellor]

But separate from off the field stuff, am I the only one that thinks Schilling's baseball resume is HOF worthy?

I'd vote for he and Bonds. Bonds PED start time has been pretty well known, and he essentially had a HOF resume before all that happened.

[Sour Masher]

I mean, I get and can appreciate the small hall arguments. I think it waters down things to have someone so insanely good, like Hank Aaron, be in the same Hall at Harold Baines, but it is what it is, and while Baines is the more egregious recent example I can think of, he isn't the first example of the Hall being more inclusive than many of us would like. All I know is that a HOF that has Harold Baines in it but not Rolen loses all its meaning. I am not saying we now have to let every Baines level guy in, because he is in, but a guy twice as good as him should get in.

[Sour Masher]

I'd vote for he and Bonds. Bonds PED start time has been pretty well known, and he essentially had a HOF resume before all that happened.

I have been tempted by this argument before, but the cheating was so clear with Bonds, it is tough. He clearly would have been HOF worthy without cheating, but he did cheat, a lot. Like so much. His head had isn't own area code. I could really go either way on these ultra elite cheaters--Bonds and Clemens. It is a tough thing to decide, cuz they were so elite. And they were such huge cheaters. But so were a lot of players from that era, some of whom, at least, did not get caught and did not suffer the same negative consequences.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I'd vote for he and Bonds. Bonds PED start time has been pretty well known, and he essentially had a HOF resume before all that happened.

If I was to forgive him cheating and being an ass I can't get past his lying about it.

[Sour Masher]

If I was to forgive him cheating and being an ass I can't get past his lying about it.

When you do something like cheating, lying is to be expected. The thing that annoyed me the most about them were the times they would compared themselves to all time greats and there would be no shame at all in their sense of place in baseball history. They cheated in a cheaters era, and comparing them to other cheaters is fair. But comparing Bonds to Aaron, lets say, is not fair to me. Aaron is still my home run king.

[chancellor]

If I was to forgive him cheating and being an ass I can't get past his lying about it.

Understood. Like I said, I have no issue with someone who voted all three, some, or none.

[Sour Masher]

But at the same time, Bonds, sans cheating, was still so clearly an all-time great, as was Clemens. It is frustrating not to have all-time greats in the HOF. If he didn't cheat, though, his career WAR and career trajectory probably would have been closer to Griffey Jr, who also started out great, but faded, presumably, without the wonder drugs Bonds used.

[Bene Futuis]

When you do something like cheating, lying is to be expected. The thing that annoyed me the most about them were the times they would compared themselves to all time greats and there would be no shame at all in their sense of place in baseball history. They cheated in a cheaters era, and comparing them to other cheaters is fair. But comparing Bonds to Aaron, lets say, is not fair to me. Aaron is still my home run king.

#notmyHRking

Lol, I hear what you're saying but Bonds never got caught for anything ever. Only rumors and allegations. And we have to realize, too, that cheating didn't just suddenly come to be in the steroid era. I mean, think about Mickey Mantle and his amphetamine use (and general shittiness beyond the drugs). His famed HR chase with Maris in '61 was cut short because of a botched amphetamine injection leading to infection, iirc.

It's just too hard to determine which guys used drugs to cheat and which didn't without falling upon total guesswork and conjecture. I just assume all of them are, were, and will be. My Hall definitely includes tons of drugs - way more fun that way.

[GwynnInTheHall]

But at the same time, Bonds, sans cheating, was still so clearly an all-time great, as was Clemens. It is frustrating not to have all-time greats in the HOF. If he didn't cheat, though, his career WAR and career trajectory probably would have been closer to Griffey Jr, who also started out great, but faded, presumably, without the wonder drugs Bonds used.

His cheating impacted others who did not cheat negatively in many ways. I, personally, do not separate the man from the stats. Again, not everyone is in my camp, but apparently enough to keep them all out of the HOF.

[Sour Masher]

#notmyHRking

Lol, I hear what you're saying but Bonds never got caught for anything ever. Only rumors and allegations. And we have to realize, too, that cheating didn't just suddenly come to be in the steroid era. I mean, think about Mickey Mantle and his amphetamine use (and general shittiness beyond the drugs). His famed HR chase with Maris in '61 was cut short because of a botched amphetamine injection leading to infection, iirc.

It's just too hard to determine which guys used drugs to cheat and which didn't without falling upon total guesswork and conjecture. I just assume all of them are, were, and will be. My Hall definitely includes tons of drugs - way more fun that way.

Yeah, I can't argue with 100% of my being keeping the elite cheaters out. As you say, many cheated before and since. But making the case that Bonds didn't get caught...I think we have enough circumstantial evidence on Balco Barry. But does that mean he should be out and some other bum who cheated and didn't get scrutinized is in? IDK. An old argument around here, I know.

On the drugs in the Hall, I am more impressed when players do drugs that should hurt their performance and they still do great. Like if I found out some dude took sleeping pills before he played, and smoked a ton of pot, I'd be super impressed.