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  • #46
    sigh.

    Joe Namath is one of the five most important figures in NFL history (you can look it up). And I think there are more than 5 HOFers.

    even if just considering on-field, modern QB stats are useless vs the past. "Completion" percentages are up dramatically because tosses to players who are -2 to 2 yards to the line of scrimmages count for such a large portion of that.

    Namath's best ranks in passing yardage were: 1-1-1-2-2-3-6-10

    his yards per catch was 14.7 (11th all-time with 3 1sts), compared to 11.7 for Brady and for Peyton Manning. almost like they played in different eras!

    now, none of that makes Namath a top-5 all-time in QB play only.

    but his popularity transcended the sport and was key to making the NFL into the sport it is today. if he wasn't in the HOF, there wouldn't be much point in having one.
    Last edited by Judge Jude; 01-14-2020, 01:00 PM.
    finished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
    own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
    won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84

    SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
    RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
    C Stallings 2, Casali 1
    1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
    OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by revo View Post
      I've always felt NFL HOF voters used anecdotes and legend more than anything else when it came to the vote. After all, offensive linemen didn't have any stats to fall back on like they do now, thanks to sites like Pro Football Focus, and players who were widely considered to be "great" actually weren't (i.e. Joe Namath), but got a pass because of their stature and legend status.

      So Swann may have been a "sure-fire" HOFer because of his highlight reel catches combined with his stats, while Drew Pearson was more a workman-like receiver who didn't show up as often on NFL Films.
      You are undoubtedly correct in your thinking here.

      The odd part with Pearson is:

      a) He played for the Cowboys, who got more attention than they deserved.
      b) He was a part of a team that went to multiple Superbowls and won one.
      c) As a WR he wasn't "hidden" like a lineman might be.
      d) He has a big personality.
      e) He actually is a big part of the NFL Films lore, being the recipient of the first Hail Mary pass (certainly not the first of it's type, but the first with that name).

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Ken View Post
        You are undoubtedly correct in your thinking here.

        The odd part with Pearson is:

        a) He played for the Cowboys, who got more attention than they deserved.
        b) He was a part of a team that went to multiple Superbowls and won one.
        c) As a WR he wasn't "hidden" like a lineman might be.
        d) He has a big personality.
        e) He actually is a big part of the NFL Films lore, being the recipient of the first Hail Mary pass (certainly not the first of it's type, but the first with that name).
        Revo is spot-on that narratives (sometimes accurate and sometimes not) tend to emerge around certain players. The "Art Monk should be in the HOF/it's a travesty that Art Monk isn't in the HOF" was a powerful one. I don't think he's a clear cut Hall of Famer, personally, although I don't have a big issue with him being in, either. But it's a good question as to why Pearson hasn't gotten that same level of attention. It could simply come down to the way NFL Films covered players like Pearson and Carmichael as opposed to Swann and Monk, or it could be more random. It's an interesting question that might be hard to untangle but I do think the narrative/storytelling element can't be discounted.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Judge Jude View Post
          sigh.

          Joe Namath is one of the five most important figures in NFL history (you can look it up). And I think there are more than 5 HOFers.

          even if just considering on-field, modern QB stats are useless vs the past. "Completion" percentages are up dramatically because tosses to players who are -2 to 2 yards to the line of scrimmages count for such a large portion of that.

          Namath's best ranks in passing yardage were: 1-1-1-2-2-3-6-10

          his yards per catch was 14.7 (11th all-time with 3 1sts), compared to 11.7 for Brady and for Peyton Manning. almost like they played in different eras!

          now, none of that makes Namath a top-5 all-time in QB play only.

          but his popularity transcended the sport and was key to making the NFL into the sport it is today. if he wasn't in the HOF, there wouldn't be much point in having one.
          And he also threw 173 TD passes.....to 220 picks. Now granted, it was a different game then, but still. A turnover was still a turnover in 1969.

          But you're making my point -- it was his popularity that cemented his ticket to the HOF, and that happened with many other players. It also doesn't hurt that he was the first AFL player to have his team win the SB, nor the slow-motion finger point, nor the pic of him lounging by the pool, etc. Arguably, he had two "great" seasons by that era's standards, and he missed almost three full seasons right in the prime of his career.

          Still, this isn't about Namath, just that legend sometimes superseded stats when it came to HOF votes.

          Comment


          • #50
            well, Namath is unique.

            not a single player in the history of the NFL was as important as he was. the notion of a narrative helping some players get in, and a lack of one hurting others, doesn't really apply to Namath. his influence on the merger and the explosion of the sport went far beyond that.
            finished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
            own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
            won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84

            SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
            RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
            C Stallings 2, Casali 1
            1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
            OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1

            Comment


            • #51
              Also, FWIW, I think Carmichael is the most egregious snub. He was a dominant wide receiver (who looked more like a tight end -- he was huge) who was incredibly durable and scored 79 touchdowns -- a huge number for that era. For perspective, Art Monk scored 68, Charlie Joiner had 65, John Stallworth had 63 and Lynn Swann scored 51. From 1973-1983, Carmichael had more receiving yards, receptions, and receiving TD's than anyone in the NFL. He was a dominant WR who still owns the Eagles' records for receptions, receiving yards and TD's, which is pretty remarkable all these years later.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by TS Garp View Post
                Also, FWIW, I think Carmichael is the most egregious snub. He was a dominant wide receiver (who looked more like a tight end -- he was huge) who was incredibly durable and scored 79 touchdowns -- a huge number for that era. For perspective, Art Monk scored 68, Charlie Joiner had 65, John Stallworth had 63 and Lynn Swann scored 51. From 1973-1983, Carmichael had more receiving yards, receptions, and receiving TD's than anyone in the NFL. He was a dominant WR who still owns the Eagles' records for receptions, receiving yards and TD's, which is pretty remarkable all these years later.
                He also held the record for most consecutive games with a catch until it was broken by Steve Largent (and then some guy named Rice obliterated that record.)

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by revo View Post
                  He also held the record for most consecutive games with a catch until it was broken by Steve Largent (and then some guy named Rice obliterated that record.)
                  Do u recall who held it before ?
                  ---------------------------------------------
                  Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
                  ---------------------------------------------
                  The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
                  George Orwell, 1984

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    If i recall i had a football card related to this
                    ---------------------------------------------
                    Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
                    ---------------------------------------------
                    The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
                    George Orwell, 1984

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by The Feral Slasher View Post
                      Do u recall who held it before ?
                      DA....
                      "I lingered round them, under that benign sky: watched the moths fluttering among the heath and harebells, listened to the soft wind breathing through the grass, and wondered how any one could ever imagine unquiet slumbers for the sleepers in that quiet earth."

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Mithrandir View Post
                        DA....
                        correct. Topps card 452 from 1975
                        ---------------------------------------------
                        Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
                        ---------------------------------------------
                        The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
                        George Orwell, 1984

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by revo View Post
                          He also held the record for most consecutive games with a catch until it was broken by Steve Largent (and then some guy named Rice obliterated that record.)
                          Looking back on that era makes you appreciate just how amazing Largent was. 819 receptions, 13,089 yards, and 100 TD's (still tied for 9th all time). Imagine if he'd played with a QB like Fouts or Marino.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Luke Kuechy retires after 8 seasons. Wow.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by revo View Post
                              Luke Kuechy retires after 8 seasons. Wow.
                              seems pretty smart all things considered
                              ---------------------------------------------
                              Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
                              ---------------------------------------------
                              The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
                              George Orwell, 1984

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by revo View Post
                                Luke Kuechy retires after 8 seasons. Wow.
                                And Antonio Gates retires after 16 seasons with 955 receptions for 11,841 yards and a tight end record 116 touchdowns.
                                “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”

                                ― Albert Einstein

                                Comment

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