Black/Brownface, Cultural Appropriation and other similar issues.

[GwynnInTheHall]

OK, I may catch hell for this but this has been stuck in my mind for a while now and I felt the need to get other points of views on these somewhat connected issues. Now I'm probably one of the most liberal, progressive, left leaning tree huggers in here, BUT I don't see why people are getting all bent out of shape over these issues.

First, Black/Brown face...….Why is it offensive to use makeup to change your appearance? Now I understand if the intent is to offend, but are we really to a place that if my kid or teenager wants to go to a party dressed as someone they admire or want to emulate, that they can't because they're not of the same skin color? Progressives are just fine with men dressing as women and visa versa (drag queens and kings) Why can't the same tolerance be afforded to people who sincerely just want to dress up as a favorite celebrity who happens to be of another pigmentation? Where was the outrage when Hollywood was making all sorts of movies where white people played persons of color and visa vera. My fellow actors seem somewhat hypocritical when they applaud counter casting (casting against type) then are outraged when a the cast of Fiddler on the roof has now persons of the Jewish Faith in the cast. my take as a director is--you put the best person in the role (most talented) as a producer-the person who'll generate ticket sales. I just don't understand the anger this generates (seems very selective outrage-y to me)

and now for Cultural appropriation. I just don't get the outrage...….If we as progressives can accept someone who identifies as a different gender, why not a different culture...…..what's the issue? we're a melting pot, we are exposed to other cultures daily--what if we feel more at home in a culture not our own? What if that culture brings a peace or comfort we don't find within our own? Again, I don't see why people are making this stuff into somethings it's not.

To clarify, if someone is blackfacing to ridicule or belittle it's one thing--to go to a party dressed up as someone who happens to be a different pigment than your own is another I don't find offensive. Same thing with cultural appropriation pretending to be something your not to take advantage of something or someone isn't cool, but finding yourself identifying with another culture more than your own is fine.


I'd appreciate anyone who thinks these things are totally unacceptable explaining their point of view or pointing out what I'm apparently missing.

[Sour Masher]

I think the extreme zero tolerance for all of these things by some is largely due to concerns about whataboutism, and the fear that accepting some of the more benign examples of these things opens the door to more malicious and purposefully harmful examples from people saying, well you were cool with your side doing it!

As with all issues, I am frustrated by the simplicity of this response. I do think there are context specific variables that should be considered, and there are examples that strike me as offensive and examples that do not. But voicing that leaves you open to attacks of defending behavior from someone you like vs condemning it from someone you do not. It is taken for granted that is the case, rather than recognizing that the act itself may in fact have a different intent and impact on a case by case basis.

All that said, I just accept that there are some things I should not do, and will not do. Because of the long history of offense behind black and brown face, that is a line better never crossed, regardless of intent. But the broader issue of cultural appropriation--some of the stories of being offended by some of that are so bananas to me, I have to believe they are drummed up nonsense meant to infuriate any reasonably minded person into thinking we live in a crazy dystopian censure/cancel culture of left wing loonies.

In reality, I know very few people who clutch their pearls over some white guy teachng karate or white girl belly dancing. Anyone legit upset by such things are clueless snowflakes that do not understand how cultural exhange works. But I really think that is an extremely small minority of people given way too much attention by the media, companies who do not want negative press, and comedians who have a highly skewed sense of how common these sentiments are, if their recent specials fighting against pc culture is any indication. Or maybe I am old and don't get how easily offended "these kids today" get.

[Ken]

Good topic GITH.

I think everyone at some point in time has said or done things that someone would find offensive. Very often, those actions were unintentional. But intent isn't always relevant, often we are expected to be sensitive to events from history that are hurtful to other groups of people.

It's a very slippery slope in both directions - life is lived out in a much more public forum now than any time in history and anyone's words and actions can be dissected. By definition that means we're going to find more things from someone's past that may be offensive to someone. But at the same time we are also more aware of those sensitive words and actions that can hurt people. And we all have a responsibility to be more respectful toward each other.

On the specific topics -- blackface - I hosted a halloween party 15 years ago and a good friend (who is white) showed up as Mr. T. It was absolutely hilarious. He was not mocking people of color, he was just taking on a role from a character that we all loved growing up, and it was shocking to see this pasty white kid in that costume. Absolutely hilarious. Now in retrospect, that would be something he likely could not do.

You brought up "Where was the outrage when Hollywood was making all sorts of movies where white people played persons of color" - I think that's the point - Hollywood portrayal of a black characters with big lips and stereotypical behavior, almost exclusively portrayed as less than intelligent - that is offensive, as we all would agree. And any "black face" now is re-opening that scar for some. I get it.

I don't know how to reconcile the two, so I would err on the side of not offending someone, but your drag queen parallel is very interesting. I had never made that connection, thank you for bringing it to light.

As to cultural appropriation, when we vacation in the Caribbean my daughters always want their hair braided. I guess that's taboo? I've seen celebrities mocked on social media for it. But at the same time, at least for my kids, it's coming from them wanting to look like the people they see there - and something they are emulating because they like what they see, not to mock. Yet at the same time I'm sure we've all seen cultures truly mocked through stereotypes and caricature type displays that are presented in a negative light.

It's a hard topic. Ideally we could see a person's intent and take that into account, but obviously that is very subjective.

Like I said, good topic, it's worth thinking about. Thanks for bringing it up.

[Teenwolf]

Nearly all of my insight into what black people think about these things comes from my wife being black. Disclaimer, most of my opinion here is based on my wife's feelings, and I understand everybody is impacted differently.

Black identity is tricky. White people want to emulate all of the positive attributes of black people and culture, but they don't have the understanding that being able to put on and take off a black identity as part of a costume, that act in and of itself is a painful reminder of one's place in the world.

I've said it before, and I'll briefly touch on it again. I had no idea how brutal the black lived experience was until I met my wife. Harassment going through stores, distrust and poor treatment at work, plus simply absorbing all of the racist crap emanating from everybody you aren't supposed to confront. All of that takes a ton of energy to keep your shit together, because my wife has learned the pervasiveness of the myth of the angry black woman, and will not allow herself to be cast as such.

I just see it as white people demanding a piece of every pie. My wife has a saying that goes "white people think they're the original flavour, everybody else is extra crispy." White people can't stand the idea that anything in the world would be inaccessible. Lots of white folks get incredibly upset that they can't say the n- word or wear blackface or speak in ebonics without drawing accusations of racism. The disconnect appears because black people are mistreated daily without recourse, and simply asking these aggressors to consider using more tact, that's considered an assault on free speech. An accusation of racism is viewed as a greater act of violence now than the racist act itself.

A white guy I work with was driving one day, and regarding the traffic he jokingly said in ebonics "outta the way, my niggas". I had to explain to him why it wasn't right. When my sister and her boyfriend were talking about a past Halloween where she was dressed up as African savages, with blackface and fake sticks and bones and crap, my wife sure didnt like that... or when her husband was commenting this last father's day about how "black people are in rap videos humping and dancing in the trees like monkeys", that sure created a chasm within my family... when my aunts or uncles approach my wife at Christmas dinner and ask my wife where she's from, "Vancouver? No, where are you really from?", waving a hand in front of their face... when being followed 1 ft behind by a security guard through an entire store. I could go on and on. The black experience, when surrounded by ignorant and unhelpful white people is a miserable one.

Blackface isn't right. The fact kids want to dress up as black people is fine, we need to teach them that doing so is painful to black people. Use any blackface controversy to explain why its painful. Seems easy to me.

I once saw my daughter playing a karaoke singing video game with a friend. They were drawn to the "create a singer" mode, using models from the pre-set characters. They used a black woman character (the only one in the game), and they took joy in "making her ugly". They create her with all of the worst hair, makeup, facial shapes, etc, and mocked her while doing it. It disturbed me, and I had to have a talk with her about it. She cried some, but it was a necessary conversation. I think understanding our role in oppression is really difficult when we view ourselves as "100% non-racist", and only when we allow ourselves to see our own racist actions, or those of others who we know not to be hateful people, can we address these racist actions openly and effectively.

As far as cultural appropriation goes, I think it's wrong in almost every case. I had a Mr. T haircut for about a year, shaved in for a film role, kept shaving it that way for 1 year. Never once wore makeup, always got comments about Mr. T. (I gave it up after waking up drunk on a train with officers mocking me with Mr. T quotes). With braided hair in the Caribbean, get 1 or 2 braids for a reminder and homage, that's not appropriation. With white dreads, yeah, my wife never trusts a white person with dreads. Black hair does so naturally, white people dreads are just a filthy appropriation. Black people are judged and ruled over for keeping natural hair, it seems quite an injustice for some white hippy to act like they're part of the club because they love weed and reggae and new age bullshit, while facing little societal barriers because of their hairstyle. Even the amount of time and money black people spend on their hair in order to gain a white pass is staggering.

To sum up, black and minority people face a tough daily life. Our job as citizens is to ease the assimilation of black and minority folks into the wider culture by respecting black identities. Part of that respect is acknowledging that some things aren't made for "us". To me, we need to meet the oppressed people on their terms if we hope to bring them into the fold. Acknowledging that some acts can be innocent in purpose, yet painful in their impact, is part of fostering intelligent and respectful discourse that works to create a more inclusive space for minorities to feel included rather than ostracized.

[Teenwolf]

This documentary on Rachel Dolezal gave me a lot of insight into cultural appropriation. You can see just from this clip how black people are made to feel by having a white person claim that identity. Her son is totally devastated.

[revo]

Blackface is not acceptable because it is minstrelism, which mocks characteristics, appearances & dialect. Since you can't tell in pics, one would assume the person in blackface also mocked the person of color's speaking, language and comportment. Obviously, it also brings back a time when black actors could not even represent themselves on stage or in films, so white people would oblige by mocking them and hilarity ensued -- often at the black person's expense. They weren't laughing with them, they were laughing at them.

But a line is drawn. When is it acceptable and when is it not? In Hollywood, "Soul Man" is an embarrassment, but Robert Downey Jr.'s role in "Tropic Thunder" is not. Jimmy Kimmel's portrayal of Karl Malone and Frank Caliendo's Charles Barkley are both hysterical and accepted, likely because both of them portray other celebrities and also dress as them. Not wearing blackface likely would have eliminated the appeal of those characters. But does that make it right? Obviously it's less acceptable now.

As far as drag, that was always an accepted art in entertainment. Many of the men dressed as women are gay, and so it's possible the thinking is, well, they actually want to be women. The performers in blackface don't actually want to be black. That's just my theory.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Thanks for the responses, quite a bit to digest. I have a long day, but will respond tonight. Sincere thanks to everyone for their input and more is always welcome.