Police Officers Are Mostly Parasites

[heyelander]

The first part, about the police telling the "militia" that they appreciate them and giving them water is here:

https://www.tmz.com/2020/08/26/vigilante-rifle-owner-cops-kenosha-wisconsin-militia-water-shooting/

Second part about the shooter walking past police while bystanders yell that he just shot someone is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVNjwHylxbk

thanks mate... While I am not surprised, I feel uncomfortable sharing "Some dude said he saw something that this other dude on the internet was talking about and..." Good to have solid sourcing.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Everything you say about the bad they are doing is true, but the part about how we would be fine without police isn't, and that is the problem with true defunding (vs using funds for training and disbanding and reforming from scratch as needed). The police are necessary in our society. That is an indisputable fact. What we need to do is move away from them being a necessary evil that does much harm, especially but not exclusively to POC, in addition to the equally obvious good they do. The idea that we can function as a society without police is a Utopian dream. Show me the country where it has worked. Explain to me what happens when people commit crimes--murders, rapes, hostage taking, kidnapping, etc, as they will do, even if we use the funds for better education and community outreach, and giving people better jobs and healthcare and all of the other things that would reduce but not eliminate crime.

The video era has exposed the dark, corrupt, inept, racist side of policing to many that did not realize it was always there. It is a light that I hope brings real change. But it is silly to think the answer is no more police. John Lennon could imagine such a world, but it ain't ours, and won't be in our lifetimes. We need a better police, a less inept, corrupt, racist police. But we need police.

I agree with what you wrote here, but I would say that there is one important aspect that it is still missing, which is that how "crime" has been defined in our society is racist. So even police enforcing the laws as written, without gunning down black men, can still be deeply problematic to communities of color and the poor. It is a problem with deep roots that goes beyond even the police. Things like bail procedures, civil forfeiture laws, penalties for drug offenses, and high police presence in communities of color are example of this that are legal but still inflict undue penalties by race. There is a good article that I read about this recently which I can't find at the moment. But if I do, I'll post a link.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Ah, here it is:

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2020/08/why-crime-isnt-the-question-and-police-arent-the-answer

I have a higher view of the value of property rights than the author, but I do think he raises a number of important and troubling points about how this discussion needs to move beyond just defunding/reforming the police and into what we want as a society.

[TranaGreg]

I agree with what you wrote here, but I would say that there is one important aspect that it is still missing, which is that how "crime" has been defined in our society is racist. So even police enforcing the laws as written, without gunning down black men, can still be deeply problematic to communities of color and the poor. It is a problem with deep roots that goes beyond even the police. Things like bail procedures, civil forfeiture laws, penalties for drug offenses, and high police presence in communities of color are example of this that are legal but still inflict undue penalties by race. There is a good article that I read about this recently which I can't find at the moment. But if I do, I'll post a link.

excellent points.

Also worth noting that nobody (outside of a few extreme positions) is advocating for the elimination of police completely. Rather a revised model where the police/enforcement is a part - ideally small part? - of a much more comprehensive collection of services that could provide front line response.

[TranaGreg]

I did not see it, but Mrs. Gregg did. She was shocked and came up to my work area to tell me about it. She also wondered how some civilian could be walking around armed.
...

again, the concept of open carry is absurd, at least to most non-Americans ... heck even in the wild west you had to check in your guns in most towns

[Gregg]

again, the concept of open carry is absurd, at least to most non-Americans ... heck even in the wild west you had to check in your guns in most towns

Right!

So I looked this up and was shocked at the numbers:

Open Carry Laws in the United States number of states: Permissive Open Carrying (26) Permissive Open Carrying w/ Local Restrictions (6) Licensed Open Carrying (13) Anomalous (1) Non-Permissive (4, plus D.C.)

So 4 states plus DC are the only ones that have total restrictions against open carry.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Ah, here it is:

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2020/08/why-crime-isnt-the-question-and-police-arent-the-answer

I have a higher view of the value of property rights than the author, but I do think he raises a number of important and troubling points about how this discussion needs to move beyond just defunding/reforming the police and into what we want as a society.

I'd say--if we were a society that actively looks for ways to improve things equitably, there might be a solution on the horizon, simply by discussing it. I just no longer have faith in that notion, I see anger, division, willful ignorance/obstinance. People willing to suffer to see others suffer. We are divided by Race, Religion, Politics, Economics and Education, just to mention a few things. I don't see that division going away because at present, divergent groups no longer seek to bridge or narrow the gap, but rather to eradicate opposing viewpoints/groups. I hope I am completely wrong, but I'm sure I'll be dead before I see any real change without an extreme event occurring to motivate cooperation and even then, I'm not so sure this can be resolved.

[Mithrandir]

I'd say--if we were a society that actively looks for ways to improve things equitably, there might be a solution on the horizon, simply by discussing it. I just no longer have faith in that notion, I see anger, division, willful ignorance/obstinance. People willing to suffer to see others suffer. We are divided by Race, Religion, Politics, Economics and Education, just to mention a few things. I don't see that division going away because at present, divergent groups no longer seek to bridge or narrow the gap, but rather to eradicate opposing viewpoints/groups. I hope I am completely wrong, but I'm sure I'll be dead before I see any real change without an extreme event occurring to motivate cooperation and even then, I'm not so sure this can be resolved.

Just hoping that the generation that is currently in high school can be the generation that stops the negative flow and tries to right the ship.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Just hoping that the generation that is currently in high school can be the generation that stops the negative flow and tries to right the ship.

As am I.

[Kevin Seitzer]

I'd say--if we were a society that actively looks for ways to improve things equitably, there might be a solution on the horizon, simply by discussing it. I just no longer have faith in that notion, I see anger, division, willful ignorance/obstinance. People willing to suffer to see others suffer. We are divided by Race, Religion, Politics, Economics and Education, just to mention a few things. I don't see that division going away because at present, divergent groups no longer seek to bridge or narrow the gap, but rather to eradicate opposing viewpoints/groups. I hope I am completely wrong, but I'm sure I'll be dead before I see any real change without an extreme event occurring to motivate cooperation and even then, I'm not so sure this can be resolved.

I don't know how much hope I have either. I want to have hope. I don't know if I do. But I'm also not sure whether an extreme event would push things in a better direction or worse. I am inclined to think maybe worse. I think people's consciences being pricked (continually) is more likely to end up in a better place than a repeat of the French Revolution would.

[Sour Masher]

I agree with what you wrote here, but I would say that there is one important aspect that it is still missing, which is that how "crime" has been defined in our society is racist. So even police enforcing the laws as written, without gunning down black men, can still be deeply problematic to communities of color and the poor. It is a problem with deep roots that goes beyond even the police. Things like bail procedures, civil forfeiture laws, penalties for drug offenses, and high police presence in communities of color are example of this that are legal but still inflict undue penalties by race. There is a good article that I read about this recently which I can't find at the moment. But if I do, I'll post a link.

Well, sure. This has always been the case. Mass incarceration is big business in this country, and the stats are clear that POC are policed more, arrested more, imprisoned more for the same crimes than white folks. There is systemic racism in the entire justice system, whether intended or not, and the whole thing needs fundamental changes. But I didn't add that point in my post, because I was responding specifically to TW's continued claim that we can function as a society without police.

But this is an important discussion to have as well. Most folks see the murders by police and that is the main focus in the media. It goes deeper than that, though.

[Sour Masher]

I personally think the kid was looking for trouble and an excuse. Now two are dead and he will have to pay the price for his ignorant and hateful actions.

I have not read up on him, just seen what he did. Where were his parents? Are they militia too? How do you let your 17 year old go out armed and do this? I guess you see school shooters do the same thing, but in this case I suspect he may have been part of a community that suggested to him that his behavior was acceptable, and even righteous.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I have not read up on him, just seen what he did. Where were his parents? Are they militia too? How do you let your 17 year old go out armed and do this? I guess you see school shooters do the same thing, but in this case I suspect he may have been part of a community that suggested to him that his behavior was acceptable, and even righteous.

Here is all the info:
-kid lives in Illinois and is only 17
-joins a Militia group
-said Militia group says its going to Kenosha to protect property
-said Militia also says they want to shoot and run over protesters and they were looking for action
-kid cant legally own/carry a long gun in Illinois until 18 so he steals a gun or is given it illegally (crime number 1, possibly by him) then once in possession of gun (crime number 2) proceeds to transport it across state lines into Wisconsin (federal crime number 1)
-in Wisconsin you also have to be 18 to own/carry a long gun and have to be 18 to open carry said gun (crime number 3 and 4)
- then proceeds to drive an additional 30 or so miles to Kenosha (intent)
-night comes and he meets up with Militia
-they decide to take it upon themselves to guard a gas station that they dont own in a town they dont live in
-protesters come to the gas station
- not sure what the protesters were doing prior to arriving but once there tensions rise, words are yelled, people are pushed and the kid keeps getting pulled back because he is in the protesters faces and they are in his.
-punch is thrown and protester is hit (crime number 5/ assault)
-kid takes off and protester follows with a plastic bag of something in his hand
- kid is about 30 feet in front, dude throws plastic bag and horribly misses
-guy is unarmed and wayyyy less of a threat
- kid turns around and shoots and misses dude because he is 30 feet away
- protester yells at him and says "shoot me ni**er"
- kid takes 4 more shots at unarmed man hitting him in the head (crime number 6 and first murder)
-kid freaks out once he sees dude dying and bolts after 8 seconds (crime number 7)
-mob chases him to arrest him
-kid trips and falls
-while on the ground is hit by a guy with a skateboard and he shoots guy in the chest (crime 8 and murder 2)
-other protester comes up with a gun (not sure to detain or shoot?)
-kid shoots him in the arm
-cops show up
-kid tries to turn himself in and says he just killed people
-THEY DONT ARREST HIM AND TELL HIM TO LEAVE
-kid goes back across state lines with stolen gun (crime 9 and second federal crime)
-kid is arrested later by Illinois cops instead of Wisconsin cops

Edit: His Mom drove him there and back.


Links avail if ness.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Well, sure. This has always been the case. Mass incarceration is big business in this country, and the stats are clear that POC are policed more, arrested more, imprisoned more for the same crimes than white folks. There is systemic racism in the entire justice system, whether intended or not, and the whole thing needs fundamental changes. But I didn't add that point in my post, because I was responding specifically to TW's continued claim that we can function as a society without police.

But this is an important discussion to have as well. Most folks see the murders by police and that is the main focus in the media. It goes deeper than that, though.

I wasn't trying to call you out, and I was responding to Gregg's post as much as yours, as well as others who have posted here in the past. And I don't even really know exactly where you are at or coming from, so I want to clarify that this wasn't personally aimed at you. Your comment was a good one, but I wanted to use it as a jumping off point for more discussion.

Part of where I'm coming from on this is that when I first heard calls to "defund the police", I assumed that meant to abolish the police. For some people those are the same, but I think for the majority who are saying it, they are not. I had to educate myself to realize that, and I still think that terminology is confusing. I had a conversation with my mother a couple weeks ago where she mentioned that there were protests in Wichita to defund the police, and she was troubled by that. (My parents live in a small town about an hour outside Wichita.) So I clarified for her that they were probably talking about moving the responsibility and funding for handling mental health and drug and social work issues away from the police to other agencies.

And then the day after that phone call with my mom, I read the Current Affairs article that I linked above and was pretty blown away by how shallow and constrained my thinking had been on the matter--starting from "of course we need police and they just need reform" rather than from "what goals do we want police to accomplish in our society." Like I said, I don't agree with everything Alec Karakatsanis wrote there, but I found his perspective very mind-opening and a helpful reframing of the question, even if I don't agree with all of his proposed solutions. I'd rather our society be way closer to his perspective than to "let's chop off 20% of the police budget to fund other initiatives and let's change the training curriculum in the police academy."

[Gregg]

Here is all the info:
-kid lives in Illinois and is only 17
-joins a Militia group
-said Militia group says its going to Kenosha to protect property
-said Militia also says they want to shoot and run over protesters and they were looking for action
-kid cant legally own/carry a long gun in Illinois until 18 so he steals a gun or is given it illegally (crime number 1, possibly by him) then once in possession of gun (crime number 2) proceeds to transport it across state lines into Wisconsin (federal crime number 1)
-in Wisconsin you also have to be 18 to own/carry a long gun and have to be 18 to open carry said gun (crime number 3 and 4)
- then proceeds to drive an additional 30 or so miles to Kenosha (intent)
-night comes and he meets up with Militia
-they decide to take it upon themselves to guard a gas station that they dont own in a town they dont live in
-protesters come to the gas station
- not sure what the protesters were doing prior to arriving but once there tensions rise, words are yelled, people are pushed and the kid keeps getting pulled back because he is in the protesters faces and they are in his.
-punch is thrown and protester is hit (crime number 5/ assault)
-kid takes off and protester follows with a plastic bag of something in his hand
- kid is about 30 feet in front, dude throws plastic bag and horribly misses
-guy is unarmed and wayyyy less of a threat
- kid turns around and shoots and misses dude because he is 30 feet away
- protester yells at him and says "shoot me ni**er"
- kid takes 4 more shots at unarmed man hitting him in the head (crime number 6 and first murder)
-kid freaks out once he sees dude dying and bolts after 8 seconds (crime number 7)
-mob chases him to arrest him
-kid trips and falls
-while on the ground is hit by a guy with a skateboard and he shoots guy in the chest (crime 8 and murder 2)
-other protester comes up with a gun (not sure to detain or shoot?)
-kid shoots him in the arm
-cops show up
-kid tries to turn himself in and says he just killed people
-THEY DONT ARREST HIM AND TELL HIM TO LEAVE
-kid goes back across state lines with stolen gun (crime 9 and second federal crime)
-kid is arrested later by Illinois cops instead of Wisconsin cops

Edit: His Mom drove him there and back.


Links avail if ness.

I actually would appreciate it if you could send me some links to this list.