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Is Joey Votto a Hall of Famer?

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  • #16
    So far this year it's looking like the cliff is coming sooner than we thought. I don't think he gets in if he puts up another 3-4 years like 2018 (.280/.410/.430 type years). He might deserve it based on his OBP, but I don't think he gets in without at least one more really good HR/RBI year.

    Gar has about 2000 more career PAs and a career 147 WRC+. Votto a 155 WRC+ for now, and has the defense over him, but that WRC+ is going to come down if he keeps playing at his current "pretty good" level. And I'm not sure Votto will have the same passionate HOF campaigns that Edgar inspired.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by minnehan View Post
      Someone please remind me... how many World Series rings does Joey own?

      Its called the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of "Pretty Good" players.
      Getting WS rings does not qualify as a requirement for getting into the HOF. As the other two posters pointed out that would leave off a quite a few players. I was reading an article "How A Person is Inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame".

      Hitting 500 homers, collecting 3,000 hits, or winning 300 games does not produce an automatic ticket to Cooperstown. In fact, there is no statistical guideline. Voting baseball writers are instructed to judge each candidate on ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contribution to the team or teams on which he played -- as well as to baseball in general.

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      • #18
        Another player that Votto might be similiar to is Hank Greenberg. Biggest difference is Greenberg accomplished this is less games than Votto.

        Games 1394
        At Bats 5193
        Runs 1050
        Hits 1628
        Home Runs 331
        RBI 1276
        Stolen Bases 58
        Walks 852
        Batting Average .313
        OPS 1.017
        On Base % .412
        Slugging % .605

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        • #19
          For me the Hall has become "The Hall of who gives a shit anymore". It's become a joke. Sure put Votto in! Another really good player in the Hall of Fame!!
          "I lingered round them, under that benign sky: watched the moths fluttering among the heath and harebells, listened to the soft wind breathing through the grass, and wondered how any one could ever imagine unquiet slumbers for the sleepers in that quiet earth."

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          • #20
            Originally posted by minnehan View Post
            Someone please remind me... how many World Series rings does Joey own?

            Its called the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of "Pretty Good" players.
            7 of the last 11 players elected through the BBWAA vote never won a World Series. While some players get additional credit for their WS performance (i.e. Jack Morris), not having a ring has NEVER been a consideration, sorry.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by pitbull View Post
              Another player that Votto might be similiar to is Hank Greenberg. Biggest difference is Greenberg accomplished this is less games than Votto.

              Games 1394
              At Bats 5193
              Runs 1050
              Hits 1628
              Home Runs 331
              RBI 1276
              Stolen Bases 58
              Walks 852
              Batting Average .313
              OPS 1.017
              On Base % .412
              Slugging % .605
              Crazy talk. Greenberg missed basically 4 years due to WWII. He still put up five seasons of 7+ fangraphs WAR. He was one of the first players to register for the draft. He was the first player to voluntarily re-enlist. He should be thought of as an inner circle hall of famer. He won two MVP awards and was the first player to win the MVP at 2 different positions.;

              Votto has one season of 7+ WAR on fangraphs. He has another of 6.9, and then a 6.5 and a 6.4, but Greenberg also had a 6.5, so if you want to count 6+ WAR seasons, Greenberg has 6 and Votto has 4. I don't think they're all that comparable.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by joncarlos View Post
                Crazy talk. Greenberg missed basically 4 years due to WWII. He still put up five seasons of 7+ fangraphs WAR. He was one of the first players to register for the draft. He was the first player to voluntarily re-enlist. He should be thought of as an inner circle hall of famer. He won two MVP awards and was the first player to win the MVP at 2 different positions.;

                Votto has one season of 7+ WAR on fangraphs. He has another of 6.9, and then a 6.5 and a 6.4, but Greenberg also had a 6.5, so if you want to count 6+ WAR seasons, Greenberg has 6 and Votto has 4. I don't think they're all that comparable.
                It's interesting, I actually agree with you in the general sense that Votto doesn't seem like he's in Greenberg's ballpark, but if you line up their bbref WARs, they are actually extremely close.

                V G Diff
                7.7 7.7 0
                7.4 7.7 0.3
                7 7.1 0.1
                6.6 7 0.4
                6.6 6.5 -0.1
                5.9 6.2 0.3
                4.8 5.5 0.7
                4 3.4 -0.6
                3.5 3.1 -0.4
                3.3 2.6 -0.7
                1.9 0.6 -1.3
                0.2 0.3 0.1
                0.1 0 -0.1

                The only season that's off by more than 1 WAR is their 11th best seasons, of which Votto is ahead by 1.3 WAR. And if you take that season out, their total bbref WAR matches exactly.

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                • #23
                  Yeah, Hank was a stud. I'm think more would realize that if he didn't miss so much time in WWII.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by joncarlos View Post
                    Crazy talk. Greenberg missed basically 4 years due to WWII. He still put up five seasons of 7+ fangraphs WAR. He was one of the first players to register for the draft. He was the first player to voluntarily re-enlist. He should be thought of as an inner circle hall of famer. He won two MVP awards and was the first player to win the MVP at 2 different positions.;

                    Votto has one season of 7+ WAR on fangraphs. He has another of 6.9, and then a 6.5 and a 6.4, but Greenberg also had a 6.5, so if you want to count 6+ WAR seasons, Greenberg has 6 and Votto has 4. I don't think they're all that comparable.
                    Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't selecting an HOF based on their whole body of work. So if Votto ends up close to Greenbergs numbers in runs, RBI, HR, BA AND OBP would that qualify him to be in the HOF?

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                    • #25
                      But Greenberg, after winning his 2nd MVP at age 29, missed the next four years. Votto isn't even close. That isn't to say he isn't HOF worthy with a few more great seasons, but I'm with JC on this one.
                      If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
                      - Terence McKenna

                      Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)

                      How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by pitbull View Post
                        Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't selecting an HOF based on their whole body of work. So if Votto ends up close to Greenbergs numbers in runs, RBI, HR, BA AND OBP would that qualify him to be in the HOF?
                        To each their own. Impact matters. Each voter decides to give credit for whatever they feel is important. Some might look at those 4 missed years for Greenberg and say "what if he had another 100+ HRs and 350+ RBIs?" In his short career, Greenberg was way more impactful.

                        If Joey gets another 2000 PAs and makes up the gaps in HR and RBI (about 61 and 350, respectively, so it's definitely do-able) then it certainly helps his candidacy. Not really with respect to Greenberg, but just in general. I think the "better than Hank Greenberg" as a way to get into the HoF ship has already sailed. Votto already has 800 more PAs more than Greenberg and less WAR.

                        Votto doesn't have the "his career was short but brilliant" argument. He needs the "he was good for a really long damn time, and occasionally great" argument. That's why I think he needs to get back to his old 25+ HR self.

                        "As many HRs and RBIs as Hank Greenberg" isn't a HoF argument in and of itself. Maybe "as many HRs and RBIs as Hank Greenberg with a 155 WRC+" would be.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by joncarlos View Post
                          To each their own. Impact matters. Each voter decides to give credit for whatever they feel is important. Some might look at those 4 missed years for Greenberg and say "what if he had another 100+ HRs and 350+ RBIs?" In his short career, Greenberg was way more impactful.

                          If Joey gets another 2000 PAs and makes up the gaps in HR and RBI (about 61 and 350, respectively, so it's definitely do-able) then it certainly helps his candidacy. Not really with respect to Greenberg, but just in general. I think the "better than Hank Greenberg" as a way to get into the HoF ship has already sailed. Votto already has 800 more PAs more than Greenberg and less WAR.

                          Votto doesn't have the "his career was short but brilliant" argument. He needs the "he was good for a really long damn time, and occasionally great" argument. That's why I think he needs to get back to his old 25+ HR self.

                          "As many HRs and RBIs as Hank Greenberg" isn't a HoF argument in and of itself. Maybe "as many HRs and RBIs as Hank Greenberg with a 155 WRC+" would be.
                          This is the problem with HOF selections. It is based on the person thought process when voting. Totally understand Greenberg was a much better player than Votto that was never the argument. But his stats might end up as being good enough to get in. IMO Votto doesn't have enough right now.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by joncarlos View Post
                            Votto already has 800 more PAs more than Greenberg and less WAR.
                            Mentioned above but careful limiting your analysis to only fWAR - by bWAR, Votto has more.

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                            • #29
                              Here is a link to all the HOF 1B.

                              http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofst1b.shtml

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