Originally posted by The Feral Slasher
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Ilhan Omar controversy
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Originally posted by Kevin Seitzer View PostThank you. Helps avoid distorted meaning behind layers and layers of other people's interpretations.---------------------------------------------
Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
George Orwell, 1984
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looking at the full transcript of what Omar said, I do not take offense at what she said. She expresses a fleshed out pov with needed context that if pulling a partial sentence out could be ammo for ignorant, or those with an agenda, but this is not anything like what we experience every day with an openly hostile to dark skin racist heading the exec branch.
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Originally posted by In the Corn View PostAnother thought here, and maybe a bigger topic, but with so many people putting, for lack of a better term, a qualifier on their American heritage is it any wonder people question their allegiance? It's not just those with Jewish heritage. Perhaps if everyone stopped trying to qualify themselves and just say, "I'm an American." there might not be so many people questioning what someone is saying and what might be behind the statement.
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Originally posted by The Feral Slasher View Post
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Originally posted by B-Fly View PostI'm sure it wasn't your intent here, but I'm reading and re-reading this statement and it's bizarre to me on its face, so maybe you can clarify. Do you have to stop qualifying yourself as Christian to remove doubts others may have about your allegiance to the US?"Jesus said to them, 'Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.'"
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Originally posted by Kevin Seitzer View PostThere's an interesting subtext in your question, and really in this whole thread, that I think makes for an interesting discussion in and of itself: ought people to have allegiance to their country above allegiance to other people groups, ethnicities, causes, ideologies, etc.? And if so, or if not, what does that mean?If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
- Terence McKenna
Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)
How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige
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Originally posted by Kevin Seitzer View PostThere's an interesting subtext in your question, and really in this whole thread, that I think makes for an interesting discussion in and of itself: ought people to have allegiance to their country above allegiance to other people groups, ethnicities, causes, ideologies, etc.? And if so, or if not, what does that mean?
JAd Astra per Aspera
Oh. In that case, never mind. - Wonderboy
GITH fails logic 101. - bryanbutler
Bah...OJH caught me. - Pogues
I don't know if you guys are being willfully ignorant, but... - Judge Jude
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Originally posted by onejayhawk View PostAnother dimension is that the founders clearly believed that God's law superceded man's law. So did MLK.
J"Jesus said to them, 'Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.'"
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Originally posted by DMT View PostTo say yes we do seems like Black and White thinking to me. We all have multiple identities depending on the context of the moment (parent, spouse, employee, activist, etc) so why do we have to determine a heirarchy on our particular allegiances?
I think this Omar controversy is really about whether Muslims can be trusted to be loyal to America above all else, and same for Jews. And I think that's the wrong question/premise to start with. But it is a very strongly held premise in our corporate life in America, and one that people disagree with in public at their peril. It is also usually assumed without being talked about."Jesus said to them, 'Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.'"
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Originally posted by Kevin Seitzer View PostAnd do you think they were right? And if so, what implications does that have, for example, for how you view people from other countries, on issues of war, human rights, immigration, etc.?
JAd Astra per Aspera
Oh. In that case, never mind. - Wonderboy
GITH fails logic 101. - bryanbutler
Bah...OJH caught me. - Pogues
I don't know if you guys are being willfully ignorant, but... - Judge Jude
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Originally posted by Kevin Seitzer View PostThere's an interesting subtext in your question, and really in this whole thread, that I think makes for an interesting discussion in and of itself: ought people to have allegiance to their country above allegiance to other people groups, ethnicities, causes, ideologies, etc.? And if so, or if not, what does that mean?
allegiance noun
1a : the obligation of a feudal vassal to his liege lord
b(1) : the fidelity owed by a subject or citizen to a sovereign or government
//I pledge allegiance to my country.
(2) : the obligation of an alien to the government under which the alien resides
2 : devotion or loyalty to a person, group, or cause
//allegiance to a political partythe obligation of a feudal vassal to his liege lord; the fidelity owed by a subject or citizen to a sovereign or government; the obligation of an alien to the government under which the alien resides… See the full definition
Can one simultaneously have definition 1b(1) or 1b(2) allegiance to the USA and definition 2 allegiance to an etnhic/identity group, or to a faith or a god, or to a political party or a cause? I think the answer is 'yes'. If the USA truly honors the 1st Amendment and the 14th Amendment (equal protection and due process), then one's definition 2 allegiances shouldn't come into conflict with one's definition 1b allegiance to the USA. And it certainly shouldn't matter whether you're a religious or racial or ethnic minority, versus a white Christian. The former should never be the basis for questioning your 1b allegiance to the USA.
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Originally posted by B-Fly View PostI think we probably need to define what we mean by "allegiance" to have a good conversation about this.
the obligation of a feudal vassal to his liege lord; the fidelity owed by a subject or citizen to a sovereign or government; the obligation of an alien to the government under which the alien resides… See the full definition
Can one simultaneously have definition 1b(1) or 1b(2) allegiance to the USA and definition 2 allegiance to an etnhic/identity group, or to a faith or a god, or to a political party or a cause? I think the answer is 'yes'. If the USA truly honors the 1st Amendment and the 14th Amendment (equal protection and due process), then one's definition 2 allegiances shouldn't come into conflict with one's definition 1b allegiance to the USA. And it certainly shouldn't matter whether you're a religious or racial or ethnic minority, versus a white Christian. The former should never be the basis for questioning your 1b allegiance to the USA.
I'll admit than when some U.S. court rules that a foreigner doesn't have constitutional rights because they aren't an American citizen, that always rubs me a bit wrong, even if it's a legally correct decision. My allegiance isn't ultimately to a system that says, "screw the foreigner" because they aren't an American citizen. That person has the same rights I have, or they ought to, and I believe in that more than I pledge allegiance to any American republic."Jesus said to them, 'Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.'"
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Originally posted by Kevin Seitzer View PostSo what does that mean for Walter Heisenberg when Germany asks him to build an atomic bomb? Or one might ask the same of the scientists recruited to the Manhattan Project, although that starts to hit a little closer to home.
I'll admit than when some U.S. court rules that a foreigner doesn't have constitutional rights because they aren't an American citizen, that always rubs me a bit wrong, even if it's a legally correct decision. My allegiance isn't ultimately to a system that says, "screw the foreigner" because they aren't an American citizen. That person has the same rights I have, or they ought to, and I believe in that more than I pledge allegiance to any American republic.
As for pledging allegiance to our government, not a chance in hell. They are (and have been for awhile) the cause of more violence than any other organization on earth. And if your (not you specifically KS) immediate response is "then just leave", I am only still here because my wife would never leave.If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
- Terence McKenna
Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)
How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige
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I also think the formulation that American troops/veterans are willing to die or have died for my/our freedom is problematic. They may have died for my safety. They may have died for my economic well-being. They have made great sacrifices. But "they died for my freedom" seems awfully trite and to make a huge leap of logic that isn't necessarily justified.
Sometimes they died for revenge. Sometimes they died pointlessly. Sometimes they died to help people in other countries (the Kuwaitis, French, the British, etc.). But not everything that our country deems worth fighting for in its national interest is "for our freedom."
I think it demeans and sometimes perverts the sacrifices that we ask our military personnel to make when we wrap everything they do in the flag and act as if they are defending our way of life, our rights, and our freedom. That's the responsibility of everyone, and it doesn't always involve military force (rarely should?)."Jesus said to them, 'Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.'"
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