Was Michael Jackson a pedophile?

[senorsheep]

I wonder how many people would cut The Beatles from their playlists upon learning that John Lennon abused his first wife?

[Ken]

I wonder how many people would cut The Beatles from their playlists upon learning that John Lennon abused his first wife?

And see I can see a difference, like you mentioned above, between appreciating / enjoying the art vs defending the individual simply because they are a good artist.

The R. Kelly stuff is ridiculous, how do so many make excuses for him?

[DMT]

I wonder how many people would cut The Beatles from their playlists upon learning that John Lennon abused his first wife?

Well a whole bunch did when he said they were more popular than Jesus.

[senorsheep]

The R. Kelly stuff is ridiculous, how do so many make excuses for him?

I had no idea he was still making music. These allegations have been around since the 90's. I figured he must be locked up by now.

[Teenwolf]

Would anybody here honestly be able to sit through an entire episode of The Cosby Show, and appreciate it for what it is without being enormously distracted by the external reality of what you're watching? When he would film a scene with a beautiful young woman flirting with him, would that not inevitably lead to you imagining him drugging and raping that woman? Some personalities are so toxic, that when their truth is revealed, it's impossible to enjoy their art in the same way.

Kevin Spacey? If you read the details in his allegations, could you then watch him in American Beauty without the external reality affecting your enjoyment? Watching sexual scenes with teenagers, watching his character kissed by another man without having asked for it... this is the stuff Spacey did for decades. His stories are too much to overcome, for me.

I also can't listen to hip-hop from artists like Kodak Black or XXXTentacion, knowing their illicit histories. If they're rapping about their past, fine... and if it's drug charges, whatever, but sexual assault gets them kicked off my playlist. I absolutely loved 1 of Kodak Black's albums, and I haven't listened in over a year. I couldn't remember why, so I googled it. Here's a quote about one of several sexault assault charges he's faced:

Kodak Black was released from jail in Florida, and was then transported to Florence, South Carolina to face charges of sexual assault. According to the female victim, who reported the incident to her school nurse, she had attended a February 2016 performance by Kodak Black at "Treasure City" in Florence, after which she accompanied him to his hotel room where he is alleged to have told her he "couldn't help himself" as he tore off her clothes, bit her repeatedly, and raped her as she screamed for help.

When you're listening to his songs that are about the assaults he's presently committing, and being excused for because of his celebrity status... I can't be complicit in that.

I'm trying to think if there's any celebrities that are/were scummy that I forgive their reputations in my enjoyment of their work. Can't think of too many. Oh yeah, Steven Seagal was a bummer for me to lose... raped a co-star at gunpoint.

[Sour Masher]

I think it is much harder to still enjoy visual works where you are seeing the person. Especially when so much of the work is based on the likability of the character. I used to love the Cosby Show, but I do not think I could enjoy watching it again. However, with music, it is a bit different for me. It is easy to separate the work from the artist when the artist's face isn't all up in your grill.

[senorsheep]

I think a lot would depend on how invested I already was in the artist and the art at the point of revelation. I liked The Cosby Show back in the day, but it's not a program I would bother to revisit anyway, just because my tastes have changed. I think Sour Masher is onto something with the actor's portrayal of a character so different from what he is and does in his real life. I agree that that ramps up the "ick" factor.

So, on the flip side of that coin, what about Kevin Spacey? Often times, actors excel in portraying utter creeps because they're channeling something they know from within themselves. I think I probably always suspected he was disturbed, to some degree. American Beauty doesn't present a problem for me, because I thought it was a cliched, sanctimonious pile of dung in the first place, and would never watch it again anyway. Spacey was great in The Usual Suspects, and I do re-watch that one from time to time. Could I re-watch it and enjoy it again? I think so. Would I seek out any of his new projects that I'm not already invested in? I'm not sure. I had planned to watch House Of Cards at some point. I won't now, but, to be honest, that's mainly because I know that the lead character disappearing midway through it would wreck the continuity for me.

Louis CK might be the best example of an artist I really liked who then fell from grace. Like Spacey, I never imagined he was anything but an asshole and a scumbag - his comedy comes from a dark place that can't be faked. I enjoy cringe-y, asshole comedy when it's intelligently crafted and artistically delivered - I don't know that I can un-like his comedy now that I've already embraced it. I will probably continue tracking his comedy. If his transgressions were worse, like actual rape or physical violence towards his victims, then, no, there's no way I could stick with him.

[Sour Masher]

Yeah, these are more good points. It is easier to avoid new stuff that you haven't already emotionally invested in. I too had House of Cards on my list to watch, but it is easy for me to just not watch it now. But if you enjoyed something before, it is hard to rewire those emotional pathways sometimes. I certainly get not financially supporting bad people, and R. Kelly is one of the worst--like way up the list. I'd never buy his stuff and avoid even adding views on his stuff online. But if Remix to Ignition comes on the radio, it is a really catchy tune. It is hard to hate it, even though I hate the man that made it.

ETA: Not to excuse my liking stuff from bad people, even as I don't like or support who they are. Some of this is tied to the myth of the auteur. I mean, most production involved the work of many people. Producers, sound engineers, directors, costars, etc. It kinda sucks for the other people who contributed to works that their work gets tainted by the bad acts of one of the people involved, even if that person is the main person involved. Cosby cost all his costars tons of residuals for life, and the pleasure of having their worked admired and enjoyed by future generations...and, of course, that is waaaaaaay down the list of things he has done to hurt people in much more serious ways. But it is something to add to the list of those affected by his crimes.

[Teenwolf]

I think a lot would depend on how invested I already was in the artist and the art at the point of revelation. I liked The Cosby Show back in the day, but it's not a program I would bother to revisit anyway, just because my tastes have changed. I think Sour Masher is onto something with the actor's portrayal of a character so different from what he is and does in his real life. I agree that that ramps up the "ick" factor.

So, on the flip side of that coin, what about Kevin Spacey? Often times, actors excel in portraying utter creeps because they're channeling something they know from within themselves. I think I probably always suspected he was disturbed, to some degree. American Beauty doesn't present a problem for me, because I thought it was a cliched, sanctimonious pile of dung in the first place, and would never watch it again anyway. Spacey was great in The Usual Suspects, and I do re-watch that one from time to time. Could I re-watch it and enjoy it again? I think so. Would I seek out any of his new projects that I'm not already invested in? I'm not sure. I had planned to watch House Of Cards at some point. I won't now, but, to be honest, that's mainly because I know that the lead character disappearing midway through it would wreck the continuity for me.

Louis CK might be the best example of an artist I really liked who then fell from grace. Like Spacey, I never imagined he was anything but an asshole and a scumbag - his comedy comes from a dark place that can't be faked. I enjoy cringe-y, asshole comedy when it's intelligently crafted and artistically delivered - I don't know that I can un-like his comedy now that I've already embraced it. I will probably continue tracking his comedy. If his transgressions were worse, like actual rape or physical violence towards his victims, then, no, there's no way I could stick with him.

Louis CK, I might continue to watch and support if he was creating worthwhile content. His last movie (the one that ended up not being released) was one of the worst piles of garbage I've ever seen, and the premise about his daughter dating an elderly man was super creepy, as were many scenes within. There's a scene where Charlie Day is simulating jerking off while a secretary is working around him that just felt so unfunny, it hurt to watch. His leaked set making fun of the Parkland shooting victims and transgender people was a particularly disappointing signal that CK is likely spent. He's got nothing left to offer, IMO.

There's also a scene in the show that he wrote for Pamela Adlon (i forget what it's called right now) in which Adlon is driving a teenage boy home, and without prompting, the kid starts masturbating in front of her... so strange that he would think this disgusting thing he was doing was funny enough to put in a tv show.

[B-Fly]

Yeah, I watched every season of House of Cards before the Spacey revelations and probably would have watched the new season, but whatever motivation I had to watch it was extinguished. All I knew of R. Kelly was "I Believe I Can Fly", which was terrible, so I've never had any thought about seeking out his other music, although I've heard tell some of it is good. Michael Jackson, however, is dead. He's not benefiting from my current or future choices around consuming his music. I can still feel the joy when, say, "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough" starts playing on the radio and simultaneously evaluate him as/accept that he was guilty/creepy.

[Teenwolf]

Yeah, I watched every season of House of Cards before the Spacey revelations and probably would have watched the new season, but whatever motivation I had to watch it was extinguished. All I knew of R. Kelly was "I Believe I Can Fly", which was terrible, so I've never had any thought about seeking out his other music, although I've heard tell some of it is good. Michael Jackson, however, is dead. He's not benefiting from my current or future choices around consuming his music. I can still feel the joy when, say, "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough" starts playing on the radio and simultaneously evaluate him as/accept that he was guilty/creepy.

Yeah, but can you still rock out to "pretty young thing"?

Or how about "ghosts"? Seems like he's writing about hide and seek as foreplay. Maybe it's just fluff, but his reputation leads me to dark places.

"There's a ghost out in the hall
There's a ghoul beneath the bed
Now it's coming through the walls
Now it's coming down the stairs

Then there's screaming in the dark
Hear the beating of his heart
Can you feel it in the air
Ghosts be hiding everywhere

I'm gonna be
Exactly what you want to see
It's you who's haunting me
You're warning me
To be the stranger
In your life

Am I amusing you
Or just confusing you
Am I the beast
You visualized
And if you want to see
Eccentrialities
I'll be grotesque
Before your eyes..."

[Fresno Bob]

I wonder how many people would cut The Beatles from their playlists upon learning that John Lennon abused his first wife?

I think child molestation is worse than spousal abuse

[Gregg]

I think child molestation is worse than spousal abuse

By a mile.

[In the Corn]

I think it is much harder to still enjoy visual works where you are seeing the person. Especially when so much of the work is based on the likability of the character. I used to love the Cosby Show, but I do not think I could enjoy watching it again. However, with music, it is a bit different for me. It is easy to separate the work from the artist when the artist's face isn't all up in your grill.

I think this is accurate. It is so much easier to distance the musical artist from the visual artist. When a song comes on the radio, I don't always attach it to the artist, but a memory or something else that pulls on me. Then the revelation of the artist comes to mind, potentially after the song is done, so I've already enjoyed the music. The example of the Cosby Show and House of Cards are very accurate, as well. I couldn't go back to either of those knowing the actors misdeeds.

[B-Fly]

Yeah, but can you still rock out to "pretty young thing"?

Yes, probably.

Or how about "ghosts"? Seems like he's writing about hide and seek as foreplay. Maybe it's just fluff, but his reputation leads me to dark places.

Maybe not, but thankfully I don't think I've heard that song, or if I have, it didn't leave an impression.