So Amazon turns down NYC -

[The Feral Slasher]

right on queue the Amazon van pulls outside my driveway

[nots]

[QUOTE=The Feral Slasher;333037]

again, that is what I said consistently thruout this post. I never commented a single time about the reps of NYC or there actions, but apparently I wasn't clear ?

And I never said I supported tax benefits nor did I ever say I was celebrating (to use your word) Amazon getting said tax benefits. Apparently after saying that 4 or 5 times, I wasn’t clear.

[baldgriff]

Government has to interact with private business. governments paying subsidies/changing tax codes/ etc to lure large companies is the exact opposite of free market trade.

On the opposite side of that - arent there cities very dependant on their relationship and interactions between private business and Federal Government? Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrup Gruman all are top 3 companies that government contracts with for goods and services. These companies won contracts from governments to provide goods and services and because of those contracts - people moved into the cities where they are located either to work for the Company or Service the people that now live in the area due to the jobs created by the contracts to do work.

Now it may be possible that those contracts disappear - and the Local Government will have to figure out ways to replace the tax base it is built on. They may find offering tax break incentives to large employers as a means of making sure the city doesn't go bankrupt a good option - and necessary to survive.

[nots]

right on queue the Amazon van pulls outside my driveway

You can believe this or not: I hate Amazon and do not have an account with them.

[baldgriff]

How can you rationalize a payment of money or tax credits to Amazon as creating competitive markets ? It does the opposite.

Because the 25000 some people that will be employed there will bring new people there that will create needs for other restraunts, markets, dentists, doctors, hospitals, car dealerships, day care providers, insurance providers, barbers, bartenders and so on and so on. Sure you're not getting 25000 new people, but you are raising the earning capability of 25,000 people and the families that come with it. There will be more jobs created in OTHER markets that will either be new or revitalize existing business. Its not just the 25,000 people, its all of the other people associated with it.

I agree that the tax credit to Amazon will likely limit competition in the specific market Amazon is in. However it will bring serious competition in so many other arenas of business which is good for the economic growth of the area.

[baldgriff]

Probably...because there are winners and losers, and the winners should get more because they deserve more. It's the natural state of things. It's only pragmatic to acknowledge this obvious truth.

Capitalism is by nature a competition. Winners get prizes or benefits that the losers dont (as is the case in any game played at a high level). You correctly state it is the natural state of competition. So as a pragmatist, I must acknowledge what appears to be the obvious truth.

You have me pegged! Whew.

[baldgriff]

Also to be clear -
I am not celebrating Amazon getting the money. I was initially taking a shot at AOC for thinking and selling that NYC actually had 3Billion to give Amazon that should be budgeted otherwise. She's a ton of personality - but she keeps sticking her foot in her mouth.

Also to add - I may not like government giving large corporations the money either - but Im not stupid and realize that the long term benefit may outweigh my frustration that "the rich guy" just got more.

[The Feral Slasher]

Also to be clear -
I am not celebrating Amazon getting the money. I was initially taking a shot at AOC for thinking and selling that NYC actually had 3Billion to give Amazon that should be budgeted otherwise. She's a ton of personality - but she keeps sticking her foot in her mouth.

Also to add - I may not like government giving large corporations the money either - but Im not stupid and realize that the long term benefit may outweigh my frustration that "the rich guy" just got more.

Yeah, i eventually figured that part out

[nots]

Also to be clear -
I am not celebrating Amazon getting the money. I was initially taking a shot at AOC for thinking and selling that NYC actually had 3Billion to give Amazon that should be budgeted otherwise. She's a ton of personality - but she keeps sticking her foot in her mouth.

Also to add - I may not like government giving large corporations the money either - but Im not stupid and realize that the long term benefit may outweigh my frustration that "the rich guy" just got more.

Here’s an article supporting your post:

https://nypost.com/2019/02/17/de-blasio-says-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-didnt-understand-amazon-deal/

[Sour Masher]

Because the 25000 some people that will be employed there will bring new people there that will create needs for other restraunts, markets, dentists, doctors, hospitals, car dealerships, day care providers, insurance providers, barbers, bartenders and so on and so on. Sure you're not getting 25000 new people, but you are raising the earning capability of 25,000 people and the families that come with it. There will be more jobs created in OTHER markets that will either be new or revitalize existing business. Its not just the 25,000 people, its all of the other people associated with it.

I agree that the tax credit to Amazon will likely limit competition in the specific market Amazon is in. However it will bring serious competition in so many other arenas of business which is good for the economic growth of the area.

Does overpopulated NYC really need all this? Or, even the limited and and resources of the area, would Amazon simply be displacing other businesses? Most places would be able to justify bending and breaking all the rules to land Amazon in their area. NYC is one if the few places that don't need to do that. Also, they didn't really need to give all that to get Amazon there. They totally pulled a Yankees, outbidding themselves.

[Judge Jude]

I think NYC may have outbid themselves, which is why I asked about academic analysis of the deal. not sure.

at the same time, yes AOC seems to be an idiot. This is sort of a tax-increment financing plan, basically - and while the merits are debatable sometimes, saying "hey, let's spend the $3B on something else" as if the 'Amazon money' is in a checking account is Trump-level stupid. when even DJT Jr. understands something better than you do, that's a bad beat.

NJ actually cleaned up on this with the Revel casino project in Atlantic City. they used the lure of future tax credits to get the developer to spend an extra $1 billion+ on construction costs to complete the project in 2012. that's a ton of regional economic development, as thousands of construction workers spend part of their salaries on local businesses.

when the casino went bankrupt in 2014, the developer got zero in tax credits.

nice work if you can get it, NJ!

as for the Amazon plan, that was for Long Island City in Queens, just across from Manhattan. there is/was room to grow there.

one of the controversies is that Amazon didn't want to have to pay union "prevailing wages." so NYS offered I think about a half-billion so Amazon could pay union rates without having that come all out of their pockets, but taxpayers.

[Sour Masher]

Well, if this discussion s to shift away from the larger issues of the merits of the deal and the merits of such deals in general, to AOC, then, yeah, maybe there is room for broader agreement there. I will more generously phrase things as this being another example of her ideals out running her knowledge and experience. Also, politically, I think, the is a loss for her. She went against the wishes of a lot of Dems by taking the stance she did.

[baldgriff]

Does overpopulated NYC really need all this? Or, even the limited and and resources of the area, would Amazon simply be displacing other businesses? Most places would be able to justify bending and breaking all the rules to land Amazon in their area. NYC is one if the few places that don't need to do that. Also, they didn't really need to give all that to get Amazon there. They totally pulled a Yankees, outbidding themselves.

Whether you or I believe they need it - apparently NYC believed they need it - or they would't offer it. Hell even OAC said they could use the 3Billion dollars they were giving to Amazon to fix the train system and pay teachers better. Like NYC actually has 3Billion just laying around in cash unbudgeted.

[onejayhawk]

I read today that 81% of Hispanic folks in that district wanted Amazon there.

That would be normal. They would be supplying a lot of the hourly paid workers.

Probably...because there are winners and losers, and the winners should get more because they deserve more. It's the natural state of things. It's only pragmatic to acknowledge this obvious truth.

The losers are the citizens of NYC. Sobeit.

It's interesting that less than 20 years ago the Democratic Party in NYC would have applauded the Governor on landing Amazon so cheaply. Now the state will lose an estimated 27 $Billion in tax revenue. Well done.

J

[TranaGreg]

This has been a fun read, thanks guys. A couple of comments.

My concern with the large tax breaks is the fluid, uneven playing field. My city was a finalist in this bizarre competition but its bid (which was a public one) included zero tax incentives. That meant that we weren't seriously going to win, but I'm okay with that. I don't like the idea of every company considering relocating here getting a personalized deal.

And since the original intent of the thread seemed to largely be to take a shot at a politician saying things that had no basis in reality, aren't you guys immune to that kind of thing by now? (maybe we shouldn't be taking what politicians say literally, we should take them figuratively )