So Amazon turns down NYC -

[nots]

Let me boil it down.
I don’t think NYC should be giving tax benefits to Amazon.
The reality is cities are going to give tax benefits to Amazon in order to gain the jobs, prestige and most importantly, tax money from its employees.
If the people of NYC are in favor of Amazon coming, and Amazon selects NYC, I think it’s dumb for the elected Reps of NYC to now discourage Amazon from coming.
I don’t believe NYC should be giving tax benefits to Amazon.

Reading is fundamental

[Teenwolf]

As I have said before, I get AOC fans, because of her energy, passion, and positions. But it does seem biased not to acknowledged, based on some things she has said, that she is inexperienced and not as knowledgeable as you would hope an elected official would be, especially when it comes to finances. She has made embarrassing factually inaccurate claims. But she is very young and new at this, and I am sure she will learn and grow and continue to be a voice for change in the party. She has been thrust into a leadership role as the face of the party just a little too soon. She needs to study up more. But a lot of that is not her fault. She sees problems and wants changes a lot of people want. It isn't like she claims to be the smartest ever and have the best words and knows better than generals and intelligence agencies. And taking sides of murdering dictators over the American people, all while saying the dumbest things imaginable. Who would say and do all that?!

I believe that her statement was more of a general position than a specific one. She was saying "why does the political establishment always talk about how great tax breaks for companies and tax incentives for companies are, when we never talk about how much we would gain by instead using tax money on public infrastructure?"

It's not been mentioned much in this thread, but part of the negotiations with New York included paying for an Amazon helipad! They needed to veto an air traffic regulation to allow the helipad, and that was negotiated into the deal. I find it so disgusting to think about taxpayer money paying for Jeff Bezos' helipad. So instead of spending hundreds of millions of dollars to fund billionaire helipads, she basically said "fuck that, we can do better with taxpayer money." If you think she's unwise for her misunderstanding of the funding mechanism, what do you think of Andrew Cuomo, who fought tooth and nail to give that $3 Bn away? He's the experienced one, he should be held to a much higher standard for fucking up the entire premise, 'Amazon wants $3 Bn to incentivize setting up HQ in NY, should they get it?'

You're absolutely right about Trump though, his lies and misunderstandings, and public idiocy are obviously on a different scale from AOC.

[Teenwolf]

Nots, I apologize for misunderstanding your point. I dont believe that AOC was "discouraging Amazon from coming." She was discouraging Amazon from taking the tax incentives, (very different) as it's her job to weigh in and opine about the pros and cons of a deal like this that directly affects her district. Given that Amazon and others did set up in NY, I guess her playing 'hard to get' worked... her discouragement had the opposite affect, so it couldn't have been too dumb.

[Sour Masher]

I believe that her statement was more of a general position than a specific one. She was saying "why does the political establishment always talk about how great tax breaks for companies and tax incentives for companies are, when we never talk about how much we would gain by instead using tax money on public infrastructure?"

I agree, her general sentiment ended up steering her in the right direction in this case (and I agreed with it based on my hunch that NYC was one of the few places that did not need to give those breaks). But in an ideal world, I'd want her to eventually move beyond general ideology steering her, as I would all politicians, to the specifics of a case, because sometimes those matter. But I get that some people would say that if she or others let specifics steer them away from their general ideology, that would be a betrayal of some sort.

The thing I was thinking most wasn't this deal. The thing that sticks out to me the most about AOC's needing to bone up on finances was that old $21 trillion deal, explained here: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/12/3/18122947/pentagon-accounting-error-medicare-for-all


There are errors that aren't that big a deal in the grand scheme, but this one was concerning, because it is scary to me an elected official wouldn't realize how big a math error that was. But even in this case, I get being forgiving, because her underlying point and message are sound. Still, that was a really big factual error that I think embarrassed the side who think government can and should pay for health care for those who cannot afford it. As a general rule, I like when those I agree with and root for know their shit and get all the facts right. I am hopeful AOC builds on her platform of ideas and backs them up with accurate data, and even adapts her ideas based on the realities of that data.

[Teenwolf]

JJ, I will just say, I think it's more important to be right about the overall debate than it is to be right about one small aspect of that debate. She was wrong in her understanding of how the $3 Bn was to be dispersed. We simply disagree that this means she was clueless about the deal as a whole.

I believe her ultimate correct assessment garners her many many more points than she might lose for one misstatement of literally zero fucking importance. That's just how I see it, and I'm happy to leave our very minor disagreements at that.

BG however, was a raging loudmouth through this entire thread. I mostly sought a response from him. Hope we get one whenever he pops back in.

[Sour Masher]

Bernie bringing the facts in his opening statements tonight. And it is clear he has fans in the stands.

[baldgriff]

JJ, I will just say, I think it's more important to be right about the overall debate than it is to be right about one small aspect of that debate. She was wrong in her understanding of how the $3 Bn was to be dispersed. We simply disagree that this means she was clueless about the deal as a whole.

I believe her ultimate correct assessment garners her many many more points than she might lose for one misstatement of literally zero fucking importance. That's just how I see it, and I'm happy to leave our very minor disagreements at that.

BG however, was a raging loudmouth through this entire thread. I mostly sought a response from him. Hope we get one whenever he pops back in.

So to provide the quick response that Jesse is looking for. My deepest apologies for not coming back to this thread and leaving a tid-bit as I was on to another topic. Keep looking for your "wins" though - if you want to call it that.

From that Wall Street Journal article:
Big technology companies are doubling down on New York City by adding millions of square feet in office space and creating thousands of new jobs, with few aftereffects from Amazon.com Inc. ’s nixing of a Queens headquarters.

There is more here to look at when understanding why companies are going to Lower Manhattan vs Queens. If you actually look at a comparison of the two counties that they are in, you will see that one county is far superior to the other.

https://datausa.io/profile/geo/bronx...york-county-ny

New York County (Manhattan’s county) employs almost 300k more individuals and its household mean income is more than double what people make in Bronx County (Queens’ county). The poverty rate in New York County is 12% lower than Bronx County, while the median property value in New York County is again over double that of Bronx County.

Along with infrastructure and other various amenities where New York County has more advantages, it is likely a better place to live and continue to develop businesses.

Seems pretty clear that Bronx/Queens was looking for a way to bring businesses to their locations, and offering them a tax cut (which again is not hard cash – the part she seemingly didn’t understand) was the method to do so. Ultimately businesses decided that those things offered in Manhattan far and away outweighed the idea of getting a 3Billion dollar tax cut, and helping develop Bronx County.

Therefore, businesses took their jobs to a different marketplace for other tangible reasons. There is no “Ah-hah” here. In this instance Amazon made a decision that they thought was in their best interest. Other businesses likewise are looking to become part of Manhattan’s success rather than going to Queens. Manhattan doesn’t have to lure them there with tax credits – which are not real cash (the point of much of the discussion).

Whats silly about this, is that you think because businesses are choosing to go to someplace in New York, that AOC was somehow correct. AOC’s district (NY 14) is the district that offered the tax credits, because the voters of that district want to see the area develop and grow. Unfortunately for NY 14, Amazon (and other businesses) don’t believe that its worth doing business there, for various reasons. So instead many are taking their businesses to a different place - an already thriving Manhattan (NY 12).

It sad the offer to Amazon didn’t draw them to conduct business in Queens. How crushing is it to realize a 3Billion dollar tax credit is not enough to bring big business and all of the development and income it would create to your city.

Yep - the market acted in a manner consistent with businesses making decisions that appear to be in the best interest of the stock-holders. They assessed the 3Billion dollar tax credit, and realized that it just wasn’t an offer worth taking. AOC didn’t win here – the people in her district got slapped in the face and told that even 3Billion of tax credits just isn’t going to cut it. And with that comes - no change to income opportunity, business development, increased tax base and other things that Manhattan is getting without even having to offer up anything.

You see this as some kind of win for AOC – I see it as a sad commentary on what large businesses think of the area. Seriously, if a 3Billion tax credit cant lure large businesses to come and partner with a city, those that live in that area will have to find other places to work and/or move to find employment elsewhere - which will likely be a negative impact on the area.

Unfortunately it is likely that much of this will get lost on you, likely because you will try to find a way to tell me that I am being inconsistent. The fact of the matter is this:
- AOC absolutely had no idea in the difference between a tax credit and hard cash
- Her diatribe about spending the cash on teachers and fixing streets may have played a part of Amazon’s decision
- Governments compete against each other for market share to have business come to their domains in order to develop and increase the tax base
- Manhattan is kicking Queen’s ass, and even 3Billion in tax credits doesn’t appear to be enough to change it.

[Teenwolf]

Streeeeeeetch... yeah, Amazon chose not to take the $3 Bn, just like they CHOSE to pay their workers $15/hr.... it had nothing to do with political pressure, surely... Gimme a break.

On a personal note, I want to thank you for not posting during the last week of mass shootings. Your absence was greatly appreciated!