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  • Any thoughts on the "Green Deal"

    I thought this would be discussed a bit yesterday - but I didnt see anything about it.
    It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years and we must stop it.
    Bill Clinton 1995, State of the Union Address


    "When they go low - we go High" great motto - too bad it was a sack of bullshit. DNC election mantra

  • #2
    About time.
    If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
    - Terence McKenna

    Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)

    How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige

    Comment


    • #3
      Btw, saving our planet shouldn't be controversial. Thanks Republicans (and their enablers)!
      If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
      - Terence McKenna

      Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)

      How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by DMT View Post
        Btw, saving our planet shouldn't be controversial. Thanks Republicans (and their enablers)!
        For real. the only debate should be how to do this in the most economically effective way possible. To the extent at all possible, it should be done with an eye toward minimizing short term negative economic impact and maximizing long term economic growth, but it has to happen, as fast as possible.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Sour Masher View Post
          For real. the only debate should be how to do this in the most economically effective way possible. To the extent at all possible, it should be done with an eye toward minimizing short term negative economic impact and maximizing long term economic growth, but it has to happen, as fast as possible.
          Agreed.

          Comment


          • #6
            Nationalize the fossil fuel companies to control the transition towards renewables, while investing massive infrastructure in nuclear power until renewables can handle the entire grid. Something drastic needs to happen in order to come anywhere close to hitting 12 year targets, which is likely a conservative estimate to our disaster avoidance timeline. We are likely 100% fucked. Too tribal, too far along the capitalist world order, seeking endless growth without regard for sustainability... but I'm sure all the "rational" folks will shut down these radical actions in deference to "the markets", while we watch the oceans die, the forests burn, the ice caps melt, and 1/2 Bn coastal dwellers becoming climate refugees... likely some few million rich folks eventually plot to get rid of all the desperate air suckers, to save more for themselves, and they enact genocide on all but 200 million or so (stated lowest amount of people needed for species survival... read that somewhere...) living in Fallout style survival vaults in a post-Capitalist hellscape...

            But I know y'all think Dyson will just invent a carbon vacuum or whatever and we'll be totally fine. So I appreciate that you all have so much more faith in humanity than I do. Its tiring to think about an end of days timeline.
            Larry David was once being heckled, long before any success. Heckler says "I'm taking my dog over to fuck your mother, weekly." Larry responds "I hate to tell you this, but your dog isn't liking it."

            Comment


            • #7
              If we can enlist soldiers to send to die in wars, can we not enlist our greatest minds in science and engineering to attack the issue of our species' survival from every angle possible? Apparently not, as the notion that we should seek to limit beef production for their carbon impact is being laughed off as unrealistic. I made these same points 5+ years ago about the impact of beef production to the same response.

              Remove meat and dairy subsidies, introduce 70% sin/carbon tax on meat and dairy products, same with processed garbage food. Introduce fruit and vegetable subsidies in place of meat and dairy. This will have a secondary impact on improving the health of the nation, saving $Bn's in health care costs while severely attacking the agricultural climate impact. It just has to happen. Also, ban Monsanto and ban Roundup use, incentivize organic growing (insect apocalypse is also happening, losing 2.5% per year, complete annihilation within the 21st century)... also remove fishing subsidies, kill the wasteful and unsustainable fishery industry, pour massive infrastructure into stocking lakes and rivers for local catch only. No more fish sticks made of mystery goop at the expense of our oceans' viability. Seriously, eat some flaked tofu flavored with seaweed and spices. Same mouthfeel, similar fishy flavor. You won't miss much. Not as much as we'll miss when the oceans are dead by 2050, considering ocean life captures 40% of our carbon output.

              Trust me when I say I advocate for veganism 100x more for the sustainability aspect than I do for the treatment of meat animals.
              Larry David was once being heckled, long before any success. Heckler says "I'm taking my dog over to fuck your mother, weekly." Larry responds "I hate to tell you this, but your dog isn't liking it."

              Comment


              • #8
                So you apparently endorse:
                the government takeover of the fossil fuel industry
                "enlisting" the greatest minds to focus on something they may not have any interest in
                government forcing and determining the foods we eat
                government elimination of meat food markets in favor of other foods that you are more in favor of.


                So to clarify - you are a Socialist and want the government to run everything - am I understanding?
                It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years and we must stop it.
                Bill Clinton 1995, State of the Union Address


                "When they go low - we go High" great motto - too bad it was a sack of bullshit. DNC election mantra

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by baldgriff View Post
                  So you apparently endorse:
                  the government takeover of the fossil fuel industry
                  "enlisting" the greatest minds to focus on something they may not have any interest in
                  government forcing and determining the foods we eat
                  government elimination of meat food markets in favor of other foods that you are more in favor of.


                  So to clarify - you are a Socialist and want the government to run everything - am I understanding?
                  So government subsidizing meat/dairy/corn products is capitalism but subsidizing fruits and vegetables is socialism?
                  If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
                  - Terence McKenna

                  Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)

                  How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Annnnnnnnnnd here we go with misstating again

                    I said Government ELIMINATION - not subsidizing fruits and veg. By the way, I believe farmers in the Midwest get plenty of subsidization for their crops already - this says they do...

                    Agricultural Subsidies. "The federal government spends more than $20 billion a year on subsidies for farm businesses. About 39 percent of the nation's 2.1 million farms receive subsidies, with the lion's share of the handouts going to the largest producers of corn, soybeans, wheat, cotton, and rice.Apr 16, 2018"

                    It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years and we must stop it.
                    Bill Clinton 1995, State of the Union Address


                    "When they go low - we go High" great motto - too bad it was a sack of bullshit. DNC election mantra

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'm saying you need to incentivize sustainable behaviour, people will not adopt sustainable practice if it isn't made easy. Subsidies are the major economic driver of those large scale agricultural practices, so incentivize the production of lower carbon footprint foods to gradually push towards a less carbon heavy food system.

                      Again, this isnt what I want due to my personal feelings. This is the only path to sustainability, drastically and rapidly cutting meat and dairy production.

                      Found this quote from Greenpeace. "Cattle ranching is now the biggest cause of deforestation in the Amazon, and nearly 80 per cent of deforested areas in Brazil are now used for pasture."

                      We know that methane is magnitudes more harmful to the atmosphere than CO2. Ignoring reality to our own peril.
                      Larry David was once being heckled, long before any success. Heckler says "I'm taking my dog over to fuck your mother, weekly." Larry responds "I hate to tell you this, but your dog isn't liking it."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Teenwolf View Post
                        I'm saying you need to incentivize sustainable behaviour, people will not adopt sustainable practice if it isn't made easy. Subsidies are the major economic driver of those large scale agricultural practices, so incentivize the production of lower carbon footprint foods to gradually push towards a less carbon heavy food system.

                        Again, this isnt what I want due to my personal feelings. This is the only path to sustainability, drastically and rapidly cutting meat and dairy production.

                        Found this quote from Greenpeace. "Cattle ranching is now the biggest cause of deforestation in the Amazon, and nearly 80 per cent of deforested areas in Brazil are now used for pasture."

                        We know that methane is magnitudes more harmful to the atmosphere than CO2. Ignoring reality to our own peril.
                        "Cattle ranching is the leading cause of deforestation in the Amazon rainforest. In Brazil, this has been the case since at least the 1970s: government figures attributed 38 percent of deforestation from 1966-1975 to large-scale cattle ranching."

                        https://rainforests.mongabay.com/ama...struction.html

                        I will start by saying I appreciate the concern regarding our planet and the various concerns around that train of thought - However,

                        I have to say that the concern about how cow and pig farts is affecting our planet is more about people wanting to move diets to a more vegetarian/vegan menu. So you limit the cows and pigs of the world - and yet there are any number of other animal species that also contribute there methane farts into the world. Those that want meat would transition to deer, elk, buffalo, bison, alligator. Not to mention that chickens and turkeys are some of the foulest smelling farms and produce methane via their farts and excrement at similar rates as their beefy/porky counterparts.

                        Yep cows and pigs fart - and they have been for MILLIONS of years - either in the wild or captivity. So of all of the things we can do to affect our climate changing - cow and pig farts should be towards the bottom of the list.
                        It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years and we must stop it.
                        Bill Clinton 1995, State of the Union Address


                        "When they go low - we go High" great motto - too bad it was a sack of bullshit. DNC election mantra

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Do we really have to point out that cattle farming, to meet global demand for beef, has dramatically increased the numbers of cows in the world? And that de-incentivizing beef eating is good not just for the environment, but for public health as well?
                          If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
                          - Terence McKenna

                          Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)

                          How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DMT View Post
                            Do we really have to point out that cattle farming, to meet global demand for beef, has dramatically increased the numbers of cows in the world? And that de-incentivizing beef eating is good not just for the environment, but for public health as well?
                            And poultry meat is eaten way more than beef.

                            Demand for chicken meat is showing no signs of declining, as poultry overtakes red meat consumption in markets around the world – including the United States and South Africa.

                            "South Africans and Americans alike are eating more poultry than ever before. In fact, in both countries, consumers eat far more chicken meat than any other meat products. South Africans consume an average of around 33kg of chicken, 10.9kg of beef and veal, 3.4kg of pork and 3kg of sheep meat per person, per year; while Americans consume an average of around 48.3kg of chicken, 25.6kg of beef and veal, 22.8kg of pork and 0.4kg of sheep meat per person, per year."

                            https://www.supermarket.co.za/news-a...Press%20Office

                            According to those numbers Chicken consumption is equal to both Beef and Pork combined. Yet we have no concerns about the methane from the multiple millions of chickens and turkey farms?? Yep beef consumption has gone up - but its not even close to poultry. Again from the article:

                            "Chicken’s rapid rise in popularity around the world started with growing health consciousness in the 1970s, says USAPEEC, and consumption has continued to grow as advances in breeding, feed selection, farming and processing methods have made this protein source one of the most cost effective in the world today; alongside higher protein turkey meat, which is described as The Perfect ProteinŽ."
                            It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years and we must stop it.
                            Bill Clinton 1995, State of the Union Address


                            "When they go low - we go High" great motto - too bad it was a sack of bullshit. DNC election mantra

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by baldgriff View Post
                              "Cattle ranching is the leading cause of deforestation in the Amazon rainforest. In Brazil, this has been the case since at least the 1970s: government figures attributed 38 percent of deforestation from 1966-1975 to large-scale cattle ranching."

                              https://rainforests.mongabay.com/ama...struction.html

                              I will start by saying I appreciate the concern regarding our planet and the various concerns around that train of thought - However,

                              I have to say that the concern about how cow and pig farts is affecting our planet is more about people wanting to move diets to a more vegetarian/vegan menu. So you limit the cows and pigs of the world - and yet there are any number of other animal species that also contribute there methane farts into the world. Those that want meat would transition to deer, elk, buffalo, bison, alligator. Not to mention that chickens and turkeys are some of the foulest smelling farms and produce methane via their farts and excrement at similar rates as their beefy/porky counterparts.

                              Yep cows and pigs fart - and they have been for MILLIONS of years - either in the wild or captivity. So of all of the things we can do to affect our climate changing - cow and pig farts should be towards the bottom of the list.
                              If I thought slitting the throats of every pig, cow, chicken, kitty or puppy with my own hands would appease a higher power to spare us from environmental devastation, I would do so. It's really not about what I want, or my sensitive little vegan feelings. It's about the sustainability of our food system. Specifically, the unsustainability of meat and dairy agriculture in the broader picture. Britain has been publicly discussing the environmental impact of meat and dairy for years now. In the last 3 years, they've gone from 1% vegan to 7%... but people need to be educated about the impact of their food choices, and then nudged in the right direction through subsidized industries. You think 99c burgers are good for America and the environment, or bad? I think we should subsidize healthy foods to combat malnutrition (yes, obesity is malnourishment), and disincentivize cheap processed food garbage. Not to ban Big Gulps or whatever stupidity, just to make it less expensive to eat healthfully and more expensive to eat environmentally costly foods, like meat, dairy, and processed crap made from trans fats, golden syrup, palm oil, etc, all the really toxic foods and additives. Not sure exactly how to attack the health angle, but I'm just spitballing here.
                              Larry David was once being heckled, long before any success. Heckler says "I'm taking my dog over to fuck your mother, weekly." Larry responds "I hate to tell you this, but your dog isn't liking it."

                              Comment

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