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  • living paycheck to paycheck

    it was suggested that this topic might deserve its own thread, so some highlights (?) from the Trump thread:

    my response to Revo:

    "if you are a federal employee whose family household is at the national median level and the family is in good physical and emotional health, but you have saved so little that you can't afford to buy food after missing a paycheck, then...... well, you're the financial planning expert. are these families living on a sensible budget?"

    .............

    Revo:
    Don't pull a Lara Trump here, JJ! It's not a good look! But yeah, in my experience, the vast majority of people have little savings, and to some that I've met, the concept of savings is so foreign to them, they don't understand it.

    "A 2017 survey found that 78 percent of full-time workers live paycheck to paycheck, with 56 percent saying they were overwhelmed by debt. There was no differentiation for federal employees."


    .................

    Kevin Seitzer:

    "So screw the people who aren't in good physical and emotional health, or who don't have savings for one reason or another?

    My family is prepared to weather a few months without a paycheck, but I count myself very privileged to be in that situation. Most of the people I grew up with lived paycheck to paycheck. I don't consider screwing over those kind of people to be something trivial, or due to bad planning on their part."

    ...................

    my response:

    "- the wall is stupid.
    - the shutdown is outrageous.
    - for those whose family circumstances are such that saving is impossible, I empathize with them. that's why we need to end this stupid showdown ASAP.

    food, water, transportation, shelter, health care plan - next is rainy-day savings, isn't it?
    and if, after the rainy-day savings is addressed, there's nothing left for a fancy dinner or a show, then well, maybe next month.

    I am glad these food pantries are open and people are getting enough to eat.
    And once this over, I'll be REALLY glad if many of these families visit a financial planner to examine how to rightsize the annual budget. might mean a used car instead of a new one, shorter vacations, moving into a smaller residence, etc.

    all of those are vastly preferable, I would think, to their current situation.

    I am fortunate not only to have had good parents, but parents who grew up in The Great Depression. they had nothing. my mother's father, a stone mason who died before I was born, threw out his back and couldn't work - in the days before Social Security. that left the family of nine homeless at times.

    the result of all that was sensible planning - they knew bad times could be right around the corner, because they had lived it.

    I got on my first plane when I was 22, the same year I first went out to a decent sitdown restaurant. Splurging was a once-a-month (maybe) ride to Kentucky Fried Chicken.

    from Revo: "A 2017 survey found that 78 percent of full-time workers live paycheck to paycheck, with 56 percent saying they were overwhelmed by debt. There was no differentiation for federal employees."

    anyone who does not find this to a MASS cultural collective insanity is, well, insane.

    yeah, yeah, old-fashioned, out of touch, etc.

    but it's the truth. savings HAS to be a priority in your family - way ahead of lots of discretionary spending.
    and if the kids complain, well, you're teaching them values that will serve them well.

    I was specifically addressing "a federal employee whose family household is at the national median level and the family is in good physical and emotional health." if THEY need to go to a food pantry after missing one paycheck, it's hardly helpful for people to act as if, "yeah, that seems like an understandable outcome." it's not - in that circumstance, which I suspect pretty well describes a good chunk of those federal workers.

    I know people here will disagree with me about the urgency and importance of savings just because.... well, just because. but maybe give it a little thought."

    .................

    DMT:

    "When you say it like that, yes it is true that Americans generally overspend. One look at the national credit card debt makes that crystal clear. That doesn't change the fact that these people are being denied paychecks because our POTUS is a completely infantile asshole who doesn't give a shit about them."

    .....................

    Me:
    "you'll have to look elsewhere to find someone to defend Trump on this or most anything.

    and I didn't get to the next level - longterm credit card debt, when completely avoidable, is utterly irresponsible and leaves so many children stuck in situations they shouldn't be.

    it sounds like Revo has become somewhat numb to the ignorance - which frankly would be the only way to survive in such a profession!

    I remember a comedian telling a joke about a homeless man who asks for money because "I'm broke."

    "You're not broke," says the comedian, "you're EVEN! I'm still paying 18 percent interest on a dinner I had three years ago."

    but nobody wants to talk about savings - too many shiny objects out there. buy first, and enjoy for a few weeks til that credit card bill comes. "

    .......................

    Revo:
    "It’s not being numb to it, more like helpless. Not to derail our Trump thread, but I had a conversation with a 60-yr old couple a couple of months ago. They want to retire in 5 years. Have ZERO savings. Like NONE. They make about $100k combined. When I told them that you’d probably need $1m saved up to draw $50k a year from it, he was almost shocked when I said he needed to at least put away $25k a year immediately, so they would have SOMETHING to draw from. I can’t do that! Well, how can I help you? I don’t know, we were hoping you could make us a plan. Yeah, the plan is SAVE EVERY DIME YOU HAVE NOW!

    His response? Can we wait until after the Holidays? *sigh* "

    ......................

    Sour Masher:

    "I hate to further derail, but I figured I'd give you guys a ray of hope on this. I had a student over winter break in an online class who wrote in his free write journal that he has over 50k in stocks. He is a 22 year old first generation immigrant. Not a rich kid, but I guess he is doing okay and has a part time job. He says that every year since he was 18, any time he ever has the urge to but a cup of coffee at starbucks, or buy a pair of shoes he doesn't need, or eat out when he could make a cheaper meal at home, he puts the amount that thing would cost into his equities account. Just doing that over the last 4 years has gotten him up to 50k. Hard to believe, but he had no reason too lie in his free-writes. "

    .......................

    me

    "yeah, I needed that after Revo's story.


    I mentioned here a few years ago that I didn't understand why the right was still pushing the "self-preservation, you don't want to rely on the government" mantra. listen, it's the smartest thing that anyone can do.

    but the war is long over. Later Baby Boomers continue to retire into less and less, and they will be a large group that votes. taxes must and will go up exponentially to keep these Boomers afloat. the tax rise for the 1 percent is fine, because by all sane accounts they took almost all of the added income from the last 20+ years anyway. the rise for the middle class will suck, because clueless Boomers will be charging their kids and grandkids to pay for their indulgences.

    millennials will be smarter with money, I think, because while their era of course doesn't match the Depression, they are more likely to have grown up with some sense of economic insecurity. (casinos struggle to get that generation to gamble, because they relate to money differently. many won't use traditional banks, because they are the ones that stole all the money in 2008 era. I can't really blame them.)

    I have 10 millennial nephews and nieces, and they as a group are very smart with their finances."

    ......................

    Sour Masher:

    "I think you are on target with all of this. The bitch of it is, from a fiscal conservative standpoint, the Republican party has really, really bungled this thing in terms of alienating so many fiscal conservative allies among immigrants. Most 1st/2nd generation immigrants that I know are fiscal conservatives. They come from countries where they don't trust their corrupt governments all that much, and many don't even like credit. The idea of higher taxes and government controlled resources isn't super appealing to many of them. However, lots are turned off by the Republican party for other obvious reasons.

    I've long thought it there were a fiscally moderate/conservative party that wanted lower taxes (or at least not higher taxes), but more at the expense of the military industrial complex and government waste and graft than social programs focused on helping the young, old, and disabled, and also minus all the racism, sexism, and socio-religious conservativism that we see in the modern Republican Party, it would dominate."

    ......................

    me:

    "https://www.cbsnews.com/video/furlou...-bank-account/

    that segment is part of the lunacy I am talking about.
    the first government worker interviewed says she just bought a new home, but having missed that paycheck, she can't afford to make her first mortgage payment and has $1.06 in her bank account.

    why did she buy this home? how did she get approved for a loan? and why do we pretend this is not financial suicide?

    the stats on how many households live paycheck to paycheck are cited, with zero insight as to why.
    of course wages are stagnant for the average American for the past 20 years, so if they continue to try to maintain an increasingly unaffordable lifestyle, they will wind up with $1.06 in the bank.

    is there an alternative? anyone know? I can think of a couple of options.

    but my point is unspeakable in politics or in the media. instead, we lionize people who spend wildly beyond their means as heroes.
    after all, there is apparently no way to cut expenses. no way to live in a smaller home, to buy a less expensive car, to skip vacations, to pass on going out to dinner, to trim TV/phone monthly expenses, to wait to watch a popular movie when it comes to TV.

    there is no way to describe this lunacy but mass psychosis. putting savings ahead of discretionary spending - so as to avoid this dilemma - is not even part of the equation anymore. it's so sad, and this story does nothing but enable the insane status quo to continue."

    ....................

    TranaGreg:

    "This is an interesting discussion if separated from politics, worthy of its own thread IMO.

    The culture of saving for a rainy day was really driven home by the generation that was raised during the depression and WWII, but that culture has long since been replaced by the hyper-competitive consumer culture we see today."

    ................

    DMT:

    "That's because the forces of capitalism must push mass consumerism...militarism and environmental destruction are some other by-products."
    finished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
    own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
    won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84

    SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
    RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
    C Stallings 2, Casali 1
    1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
    OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1

  • #2
    Originally posted by Sour Masher
    "I think you are on target with all of this. The bitch of it is, from a fiscal conservative standpoint, the Republican party has really, really bungled this thing in terms of alienating so many fiscal conservative allies among immigrants. Most 1st/2nd generation immigrants that I know are fiscal conservatives. They come from countries where they don't trust their corrupt governments all that much, and many don't even like credit. The idea of higher taxes and government controlled resources isn't super appealing to many of them. However, lots are turned off by the Republican party for other obvious reasons.

    I've long thought it there were a fiscally moderate/conservative party that wanted lower taxes (or at least not higher taxes), but more at the expense of the military industrial complex and government waste and graft than social programs focused on helping the young, old, and disabled, and also minus all the racism, sexism, and socio-religious conservativism that we see in the modern Republican Party, it would dominate."
    There is a party like this - but you will end up wasting your vote..........
    It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years and we must stop it.
    Bill Clinton 1995, State of the Union Address


    "When they go low - we go High" great motto - too bad it was a sack of bullshit. DNC election mantra

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by baldgriff View Post
      There is a party like this - but you will end up wasting your vote..........
      Libertarians talk more about reducing regulations, cutting taxes, and social benefits than they do about shifting the tax burden to the wealthy and dismantling the MIC. Rand Paul is the most powerful libertarian official and look how he's used his position to advance the Libertarian agenda.
      If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
      - Terence McKenna

      Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)

      How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige

      Comment


      • #4
        senior writer at Roll Call, stoking a mass amount of outrage on Twitter:


        Niels Lesniewski
        ‏Verified account @nielslesniewski

        "I don't quite understand why" federal workers are needing to go to food banks, says Secretary Wilbur Ross on CNBC.
        8:44 AM - 24 Jan 2019

        .......................

        (questioning the discretionary spending vs savings choices of Americans making a pretty decent living wage is verboten. they can spend all they like, and save nothing, and we all stand up and salute. it sort of makes sense: if someone is making their own poor choices, they are in solidarity with others who do the same - like the woman with a new condo and $1.06 in her bank account. makes sense! of course, Ross being an old, white, wealthy douchebag is the perfect cover to avoid the real issue.)
        finished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
        own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
        won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84

        SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
        RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
        C Stallings 2, Casali 1
        1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
        OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Judge Jude View Post
          senior writer at Roll Call, getting seemingly unanimous praise from Twitter:


          Niels Lesniewski
          ‏Verified account @nielslesniewski

          "I don't quite understand why" federal workers are needing to go to food banks, says Secretary Wilbur Ross on CNBC.
          8:44 AM - 24 Jan 2019

          .......................

          (questioning the discretionary spending vs savings choices of Americans making a pretty decent living wage is verboten. they can spend all they like, and save nothing, and we all stand up and salute.)
          Questioning American spending habits means questioning Capitalism itself, and only the far left (Bernie and AOC) are willing to go there. But they recognize that the problem isn't the workers themselves but the Capitalist system that is exploiting them and enriching the .01%.
          If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
          - Terence McKenna

          Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)

          How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige

          Comment


          • #6
            Why haven't real wages increased in nearly 50 years? Why is this true?

            The growing concentration of the world’s wealth has been highlighted by a report showing that the 26 richest billionaires own as many assets as the 3.8 billion people who make up the poorest half of the planet’s population....Oxfam said the wealth of more than 2,200 billionaires across the globe had increased by $900bn in 2018 – or $2.5bn a day. The 12% increase in the wealth of the very richest contrasted with a fall of 11% in the wealth of the poorest half of the world’s population.
            If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
            - Terence McKenna

            Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)

            How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige

            Comment


            • #7
              As a financial adviser, especially as one who has a few 401k plans as clients (where I can see what an everyday "rank & file" employee saves and their financial habits), it's horrifying. The reality is that most people simply don't understand the necessity of saving money, or finding ways to cut bills. I had a discussion just the other day with a well-paid employee at one of the company's whose 401k plan I manage, and while he has savings that are more than the average American, they're not nearly enough considering his compensation. And trying to find ways to cut down on spending was fruitless. How much are your car payments? Why do you lease instead of buy? Why do you go out to eat 6-8 times a month?

              The problem is ingrained habits in spending -- car leases, new $1,000 phones, nice apartments, high mortgages, expensive vacations, dining out frequently, entertainment, etc. -- and yet wages have, as JJ mentioned, stayed relatively stagnant. A "solid" wage in 2019 is almost on par with what I made as a new college grad in 1992 -- and that DOESN'T take into account inflation. Just the actual figure.

              Comment


              • #8
                One of the answers are the neoliberal economic policies pushed by both the Republicans and Democrats. The Davos billionaires are laughing at the rest of us.

                .@AOC tax plan gets put to Michael Dell. Asked if he supports it, room here in Davos bursts out laughing.
                If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
                - Terence McKenna

                Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)

                How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DMT View Post
                  Questioning American spending habits means questioning Capitalism itself, and only the far left (Bernie and AOC) are willing to go there. But they recognize that the problem isn't the workers themselves but the Capitalist system that is exploiting them and enriching the .01%.
                  and here I thought free will wasn't dead!
                  finished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
                  own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
                  won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84

                  SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
                  RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
                  C Stallings 2, Casali 1
                  1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
                  OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by baldgriff View Post
                    There is a party like this - but you will end up wasting your vote..........
                    it seems like you're looking for a political solution to the problem - through regulation ???
                    It certainly feels that way. But I'm distrustful of that feeling and am curious about evidence.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Judge Jude View Post
                      and here I thought free will wasn't dead!
                      So you honestly thought a thread about living paycheck to paycheck was just going to be various ranting about people's poor spending habits? Come on now.
                      If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
                      - Terence McKenna

                      Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)

                      How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DMT View Post
                        Libertarians talk more about reducing regulations, cutting taxes, and social benefits than they do about shifting the tax burden to the wealthy and dismantling the MIC. Rand Paul is the most powerful libertarian official and look how he's used his position to advance the Libertarian agenda.
                        The military complex would decline because we are not going to actively seek out wars and invasions - rather home border defense. Also, correct we would cut regulations, thereby eliminating many government "oversight" jobs which are expensive and create waste. Govt spending millions on stupid programs, like do quails fuck more when on cocaine, could be used to fund various programs - or better yet put back in the pocket of the tax payers. Thus we dont have to shift the tax burden, we give each person back the money that is being wasted and allow them to spend it on whatever they want.

                        I dont have issue with some social programs that will help feed some people, or assist with some housing. I would actually love for us to give this money back to the people that its being taken from so they can buy their own food, and afford their own place.

                        Here is a short clip about Rand Paul calling out some of the spending.
                        It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years and we must stop it.
                        Bill Clinton 1995, State of the Union Address


                        "When they go low - we go High" great motto - too bad it was a sack of bullshit. DNC election mantra

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          And then here is an 11 minute speech he made about a year ago - talking about the debt and spending. I think if you would take the time to listen you would likely agree with everything he is saying:



                          "A country cannot go on forever spending this way" Rand Paul.
                          It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years and we must stop it.
                          Bill Clinton 1995, State of the Union Address


                          "When they go low - we go High" great motto - too bad it was a sack of bullshit. DNC election mantra

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TranaGreg View Post
                            it seems like you're looking for a political solution to the problem - through regulation ???
                            Im saying that there is a party that doesnt want to waste our money and continue to over spend. We want less regulation and money in people's pockets
                            It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years and we must stop it.
                            Bill Clinton 1995, State of the Union Address


                            "When they go low - we go High" great motto - too bad it was a sack of bullshit. DNC election mantra

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Employers should be incentivized to create nudges that drive employees to save more, including matching contributions to 401(k) plans, shifting from opt-in to opt-out (where when you're hired you're provided an information form regarding the retirement plan and notice that, unless you affirmatively opt out, you'll be enrolled at x% contribution from gross pay, etc.

                              Comment

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