it was suggested that this topic might deserve its own thread, so some highlights (?) from the Trump thread:
my response to Revo:
"if you are a federal employee whose family household is at the national median level and the family is in good physical and emotional health, but you have saved so little that you can't afford to buy food after missing a paycheck, then...... well, you're the financial planning expert. are these families living on a sensible budget?"
.............
Revo:
Don't pull a Lara Trump here, JJ! It's not a good look! But yeah, in my experience, the vast majority of people have little savings, and to some that I've met, the concept of savings is so foreign to them, they don't understand it.
"A 2017 survey found that 78 percent of full-time workers live paycheck to paycheck, with 56 percent saying they were overwhelmed by debt. There was no differentiation for federal employees."
.................
Kevin Seitzer:
"So screw the people who aren't in good physical and emotional health, or who don't have savings for one reason or another?
My family is prepared to weather a few months without a paycheck, but I count myself very privileged to be in that situation. Most of the people I grew up with lived paycheck to paycheck. I don't consider screwing over those kind of people to be something trivial, or due to bad planning on their part."
...................
my response:
"- the wall is stupid.
- the shutdown is outrageous.
- for those whose family circumstances are such that saving is impossible, I empathize with them. that's why we need to end this stupid showdown ASAP.
food, water, transportation, shelter, health care plan - next is rainy-day savings, isn't it?
and if, after the rainy-day savings is addressed, there's nothing left for a fancy dinner or a show, then well, maybe next month.
I am glad these food pantries are open and people are getting enough to eat.
And once this over, I'll be REALLY glad if many of these families visit a financial planner to examine how to rightsize the annual budget. might mean a used car instead of a new one, shorter vacations, moving into a smaller residence, etc.
all of those are vastly preferable, I would think, to their current situation.
I am fortunate not only to have had good parents, but parents who grew up in The Great Depression. they had nothing. my mother's father, a stone mason who died before I was born, threw out his back and couldn't work - in the days before Social Security. that left the family of nine homeless at times.
the result of all that was sensible planning - they knew bad times could be right around the corner, because they had lived it.
I got on my first plane when I was 22, the same year I first went out to a decent sitdown restaurant. Splurging was a once-a-month (maybe) ride to Kentucky Fried Chicken.
from Revo: "A 2017 survey found that 78 percent of full-time workers live paycheck to paycheck, with 56 percent saying they were overwhelmed by debt. There was no differentiation for federal employees."
anyone who does not find this to a MASS cultural collective insanity is, well, insane.
yeah, yeah, old-fashioned, out of touch, etc.
but it's the truth. savings HAS to be a priority in your family - way ahead of lots of discretionary spending.
and if the kids complain, well, you're teaching them values that will serve them well.
I was specifically addressing "a federal employee whose family household is at the national median level and the family is in good physical and emotional health." if THEY need to go to a food pantry after missing one paycheck, it's hardly helpful for people to act as if, "yeah, that seems like an understandable outcome." it's not - in that circumstance, which I suspect pretty well describes a good chunk of those federal workers.
I know people here will disagree with me about the urgency and importance of savings just because.... well, just because. but maybe give it a little thought."
.................
DMT:
"When you say it like that, yes it is true that Americans generally overspend. One look at the national credit card debt makes that crystal clear. That doesn't change the fact that these people are being denied paychecks because our POTUS is a completely infantile asshole who doesn't give a shit about them."
.....................
Me:
"you'll have to look elsewhere to find someone to defend Trump on this or most anything.
and I didn't get to the next level - longterm credit card debt, when completely avoidable, is utterly irresponsible and leaves so many children stuck in situations they shouldn't be.
it sounds like Revo has become somewhat numb to the ignorance - which frankly would be the only way to survive in such a profession!
I remember a comedian telling a joke about a homeless man who asks for money because "I'm broke."
"You're not broke," says the comedian, "you're EVEN! I'm still paying 18 percent interest on a dinner I had three years ago."
but nobody wants to talk about savings - too many shiny objects out there. buy first, and enjoy for a few weeks til that credit card bill comes. "
.......................
Revo:
"It’s not being numb to it, more like helpless. Not to derail our Trump thread, but I had a conversation with a 60-yr old couple a couple of months ago. They want to retire in 5 years. Have ZERO savings. Like NONE. They make about $100k combined. When I told them that you’d probably need $1m saved up to draw $50k a year from it, he was almost shocked when I said he needed to at least put away $25k a year immediately, so they would have SOMETHING to draw from. I can’t do that! Well, how can I help you? I don’t know, we were hoping you could make us a plan. Yeah, the plan is SAVE EVERY DIME YOU HAVE NOW!
His response? Can we wait until after the Holidays? *sigh* "
......................
Sour Masher:
"I hate to further derail, but I figured I'd give you guys a ray of hope on this. I had a student over winter break in an online class who wrote in his free write journal that he has over 50k in stocks. He is a 22 year old first generation immigrant. Not a rich kid, but I guess he is doing okay and has a part time job. He says that every year since he was 18, any time he ever has the urge to but a cup of coffee at starbucks, or buy a pair of shoes he doesn't need, or eat out when he could make a cheaper meal at home, he puts the amount that thing would cost into his equities account. Just doing that over the last 4 years has gotten him up to 50k. Hard to believe, but he had no reason too lie in his free-writes. "
.......................
me
"yeah, I needed that after Revo's story.
I mentioned here a few years ago that I didn't understand why the right was still pushing the "self-preservation, you don't want to rely on the government" mantra. listen, it's the smartest thing that anyone can do.
but the war is long over. Later Baby Boomers continue to retire into less and less, and they will be a large group that votes. taxes must and will go up exponentially to keep these Boomers afloat. the tax rise for the 1 percent is fine, because by all sane accounts they took almost all of the added income from the last 20+ years anyway. the rise for the middle class will suck, because clueless Boomers will be charging their kids and grandkids to pay for their indulgences.
millennials will be smarter with money, I think, because while their era of course doesn't match the Depression, they are more likely to have grown up with some sense of economic insecurity. (casinos struggle to get that generation to gamble, because they relate to money differently. many won't use traditional banks, because they are the ones that stole all the money in 2008 era. I can't really blame them.)
I have 10 millennial nephews and nieces, and they as a group are very smart with their finances."
......................
Sour Masher:
"I think you are on target with all of this. The bitch of it is, from a fiscal conservative standpoint, the Republican party has really, really bungled this thing in terms of alienating so many fiscal conservative allies among immigrants. Most 1st/2nd generation immigrants that I know are fiscal conservatives. They come from countries where they don't trust their corrupt governments all that much, and many don't even like credit. The idea of higher taxes and government controlled resources isn't super appealing to many of them. However, lots are turned off by the Republican party for other obvious reasons.
I've long thought it there were a fiscally moderate/conservative party that wanted lower taxes (or at least not higher taxes), but more at the expense of the military industrial complex and government waste and graft than social programs focused on helping the young, old, and disabled, and also minus all the racism, sexism, and socio-religious conservativism that we see in the modern Republican Party, it would dominate."
......................
me:
"https://www.cbsnews.com/video/furlou...-bank-account/
that segment is part of the lunacy I am talking about.
the first government worker interviewed says she just bought a new home, but having missed that paycheck, she can't afford to make her first mortgage payment and has $1.06 in her bank account.
why did she buy this home? how did she get approved for a loan? and why do we pretend this is not financial suicide?
the stats on how many households live paycheck to paycheck are cited, with zero insight as to why.
of course wages are stagnant for the average American for the past 20 years, so if they continue to try to maintain an increasingly unaffordable lifestyle, they will wind up with $1.06 in the bank.
is there an alternative? anyone know? I can think of a couple of options.
but my point is unspeakable in politics or in the media. instead, we lionize people who spend wildly beyond their means as heroes.
after all, there is apparently no way to cut expenses. no way to live in a smaller home, to buy a less expensive car, to skip vacations, to pass on going out to dinner, to trim TV/phone monthly expenses, to wait to watch a popular movie when it comes to TV.
there is no way to describe this lunacy but mass psychosis. putting savings ahead of discretionary spending - so as to avoid this dilemma - is not even part of the equation anymore. it's so sad, and this story does nothing but enable the insane status quo to continue."
....................
TranaGreg:
"This is an interesting discussion if separated from politics, worthy of its own thread IMO.
The culture of saving for a rainy day was really driven home by the generation that was raised during the depression and WWII, but that culture has long since been replaced by the hyper-competitive consumer culture we see today."
................
DMT:
"That's because the forces of capitalism must push mass consumerism...militarism and environmental destruction are some other by-products."
my response to Revo:
"if you are a federal employee whose family household is at the national median level and the family is in good physical and emotional health, but you have saved so little that you can't afford to buy food after missing a paycheck, then...... well, you're the financial planning expert. are these families living on a sensible budget?"
.............
Revo:
Don't pull a Lara Trump here, JJ! It's not a good look! But yeah, in my experience, the vast majority of people have little savings, and to some that I've met, the concept of savings is so foreign to them, they don't understand it.
"A 2017 survey found that 78 percent of full-time workers live paycheck to paycheck, with 56 percent saying they were overwhelmed by debt. There was no differentiation for federal employees."
.................
Kevin Seitzer:
"So screw the people who aren't in good physical and emotional health, or who don't have savings for one reason or another?
My family is prepared to weather a few months without a paycheck, but I count myself very privileged to be in that situation. Most of the people I grew up with lived paycheck to paycheck. I don't consider screwing over those kind of people to be something trivial, or due to bad planning on their part."
...................
my response:
"- the wall is stupid.
- the shutdown is outrageous.
- for those whose family circumstances are such that saving is impossible, I empathize with them. that's why we need to end this stupid showdown ASAP.
food, water, transportation, shelter, health care plan - next is rainy-day savings, isn't it?
and if, after the rainy-day savings is addressed, there's nothing left for a fancy dinner or a show, then well, maybe next month.
I am glad these food pantries are open and people are getting enough to eat.
And once this over, I'll be REALLY glad if many of these families visit a financial planner to examine how to rightsize the annual budget. might mean a used car instead of a new one, shorter vacations, moving into a smaller residence, etc.
all of those are vastly preferable, I would think, to their current situation.
I am fortunate not only to have had good parents, but parents who grew up in The Great Depression. they had nothing. my mother's father, a stone mason who died before I was born, threw out his back and couldn't work - in the days before Social Security. that left the family of nine homeless at times.
the result of all that was sensible planning - they knew bad times could be right around the corner, because they had lived it.
I got on my first plane when I was 22, the same year I first went out to a decent sitdown restaurant. Splurging was a once-a-month (maybe) ride to Kentucky Fried Chicken.
from Revo: "A 2017 survey found that 78 percent of full-time workers live paycheck to paycheck, with 56 percent saying they were overwhelmed by debt. There was no differentiation for federal employees."
anyone who does not find this to a MASS cultural collective insanity is, well, insane.
yeah, yeah, old-fashioned, out of touch, etc.
but it's the truth. savings HAS to be a priority in your family - way ahead of lots of discretionary spending.
and if the kids complain, well, you're teaching them values that will serve them well.
I was specifically addressing "a federal employee whose family household is at the national median level and the family is in good physical and emotional health." if THEY need to go to a food pantry after missing one paycheck, it's hardly helpful for people to act as if, "yeah, that seems like an understandable outcome." it's not - in that circumstance, which I suspect pretty well describes a good chunk of those federal workers.
I know people here will disagree with me about the urgency and importance of savings just because.... well, just because. but maybe give it a little thought."
.................
DMT:
"When you say it like that, yes it is true that Americans generally overspend. One look at the national credit card debt makes that crystal clear. That doesn't change the fact that these people are being denied paychecks because our POTUS is a completely infantile asshole who doesn't give a shit about them."
.....................
Me:
"you'll have to look elsewhere to find someone to defend Trump on this or most anything.
and I didn't get to the next level - longterm credit card debt, when completely avoidable, is utterly irresponsible and leaves so many children stuck in situations they shouldn't be.
it sounds like Revo has become somewhat numb to the ignorance - which frankly would be the only way to survive in such a profession!
I remember a comedian telling a joke about a homeless man who asks for money because "I'm broke."
"You're not broke," says the comedian, "you're EVEN! I'm still paying 18 percent interest on a dinner I had three years ago."
but nobody wants to talk about savings - too many shiny objects out there. buy first, and enjoy for a few weeks til that credit card bill comes. "
.......................
Revo:
"It’s not being numb to it, more like helpless. Not to derail our Trump thread, but I had a conversation with a 60-yr old couple a couple of months ago. They want to retire in 5 years. Have ZERO savings. Like NONE. They make about $100k combined. When I told them that you’d probably need $1m saved up to draw $50k a year from it, he was almost shocked when I said he needed to at least put away $25k a year immediately, so they would have SOMETHING to draw from. I can’t do that! Well, how can I help you? I don’t know, we were hoping you could make us a plan. Yeah, the plan is SAVE EVERY DIME YOU HAVE NOW!
His response? Can we wait until after the Holidays? *sigh* "
......................
Sour Masher:
"I hate to further derail, but I figured I'd give you guys a ray of hope on this. I had a student over winter break in an online class who wrote in his free write journal that he has over 50k in stocks. He is a 22 year old first generation immigrant. Not a rich kid, but I guess he is doing okay and has a part time job. He says that every year since he was 18, any time he ever has the urge to but a cup of coffee at starbucks, or buy a pair of shoes he doesn't need, or eat out when he could make a cheaper meal at home, he puts the amount that thing would cost into his equities account. Just doing that over the last 4 years has gotten him up to 50k. Hard to believe, but he had no reason too lie in his free-writes. "
.......................
me
"yeah, I needed that after Revo's story.
I mentioned here a few years ago that I didn't understand why the right was still pushing the "self-preservation, you don't want to rely on the government" mantra. listen, it's the smartest thing that anyone can do.
but the war is long over. Later Baby Boomers continue to retire into less and less, and they will be a large group that votes. taxes must and will go up exponentially to keep these Boomers afloat. the tax rise for the 1 percent is fine, because by all sane accounts they took almost all of the added income from the last 20+ years anyway. the rise for the middle class will suck, because clueless Boomers will be charging their kids and grandkids to pay for their indulgences.
millennials will be smarter with money, I think, because while their era of course doesn't match the Depression, they are more likely to have grown up with some sense of economic insecurity. (casinos struggle to get that generation to gamble, because they relate to money differently. many won't use traditional banks, because they are the ones that stole all the money in 2008 era. I can't really blame them.)
I have 10 millennial nephews and nieces, and they as a group are very smart with their finances."
......................
Sour Masher:
"I think you are on target with all of this. The bitch of it is, from a fiscal conservative standpoint, the Republican party has really, really bungled this thing in terms of alienating so many fiscal conservative allies among immigrants. Most 1st/2nd generation immigrants that I know are fiscal conservatives. They come from countries where they don't trust their corrupt governments all that much, and many don't even like credit. The idea of higher taxes and government controlled resources isn't super appealing to many of them. However, lots are turned off by the Republican party for other obvious reasons.
I've long thought it there were a fiscally moderate/conservative party that wanted lower taxes (or at least not higher taxes), but more at the expense of the military industrial complex and government waste and graft than social programs focused on helping the young, old, and disabled, and also minus all the racism, sexism, and socio-religious conservativism that we see in the modern Republican Party, it would dominate."
......................
me:
"https://www.cbsnews.com/video/furlou...-bank-account/
that segment is part of the lunacy I am talking about.
the first government worker interviewed says she just bought a new home, but having missed that paycheck, she can't afford to make her first mortgage payment and has $1.06 in her bank account.
why did she buy this home? how did she get approved for a loan? and why do we pretend this is not financial suicide?
the stats on how many households live paycheck to paycheck are cited, with zero insight as to why.
of course wages are stagnant for the average American for the past 20 years, so if they continue to try to maintain an increasingly unaffordable lifestyle, they will wind up with $1.06 in the bank.
is there an alternative? anyone know? I can think of a couple of options.
but my point is unspeakable in politics or in the media. instead, we lionize people who spend wildly beyond their means as heroes.
after all, there is apparently no way to cut expenses. no way to live in a smaller home, to buy a less expensive car, to skip vacations, to pass on going out to dinner, to trim TV/phone monthly expenses, to wait to watch a popular movie when it comes to TV.
there is no way to describe this lunacy but mass psychosis. putting savings ahead of discretionary spending - so as to avoid this dilemma - is not even part of the equation anymore. it's so sad, and this story does nothing but enable the insane status quo to continue."
....................
TranaGreg:
"This is an interesting discussion if separated from politics, worthy of its own thread IMO.
The culture of saving for a rainy day was really driven home by the generation that was raised during the depression and WWII, but that culture has long since been replaced by the hyper-competitive consumer culture we see today."
................
DMT:
"That's because the forces of capitalism must push mass consumerism...militarism and environmental destruction are some other by-products."
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