Percentage of Blame: Covington Teens, Black Hebrew Israelites, Native American Elder

[In the Corn]

This story has Trumped the Trump page, and I think it deserves it's own thread.

I was just like the majority of people upon seeing the original video. The teen from Covington with his smirk disrespecting the Native Elder. After hearing more, IMO, there is culpability within all of these groups. I've been dismayed by people grasping at straws to make sure that whichever video fits their narrative is the real, true perspective. I've seen people (my very liberal friends) post about the Covington culture with the boys dressed in black and black-face at their basketball games and holding up the three-finger white supremacists code (not realizing it signals a three-point basket). My very conservtaive friends post about the rush to judgment.

I'm so tired of every time something like this comes about we have to make it fit our narrative. We've lost the ability to see other perspectives. We can no longer critically think. We can no longer nuance any subject, everything has to have a dividing line.

So folks, please give me your percentages of whose at fault. You can add others than the three listed.

[B-Fly]

Trump - 100%

Seriously, though, I guess my question is "at fault for what"? What is (are) the injur(y/ies) for which you're asking us to apportion responsibility or guilt? Or are we just assigning comparative levels of dickishness?

[Kevin Seitzer]

I think one of the things that bothers me about trying to answer a question like this, beyond the fact that I wasn't there and don't really know all that went on, is that it's a lot easier for to put myself in the shoes of either the teens or their parents than it is in the shoes of a Black Israelite or Native American.

The Black Israelites obviously were not contributing productively to the situation. But are they mentally ill? What's their background? Black people have faced so much shit in this country that I tend to give them a lot of leeway that I don't tend to extend to middle class white kids whose shoes I have walked in. Same for Native Americans.

It's been mentioned that teenagers will behave this way. And I would have behaved that way too, as a teenager, if I didn't think my parents and teachers expected differently of me.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Seriously, though, I guess my question is "at fault for what"? What is (are) the injur(y/ies) for which you're asking us to apportion responsibility or guilt? Or are we just assigning comparative levels of dickishness?

This is a good question.

[nots]

I think one of the things that bothers me about trying to answer a question like this, beyond the fact that I wasn't there and don't really know all that went on, is that it's a lot easier for to put myself in the shoes of either the teens or their parents than it is in the shoes of a Black Israelite or Native American.

The Black Israelites obviously were not contributing productively to the situation. But are they mentally ill? What's their background? Black people have faced so much shit in this country that I tend to give them a lot of leeway that I don't tend to extend to middle class white kids whose shoes I have walked in. Same for Native Americans.

It's been mentioned that teenagers will behave this way. And I would have behaved that way too, as a teenager, if I didn't think my parents and teachers expected differently of me.

Black Israelites are considered a hate group by Southern Law Poverty Center. Exactly how much leeway do they deserve?

[In the Corn]

Trump - 100%

Seriously, though, I guess my question is "at fault for what"? What is (are) the injur(y/ies) for which you're asking us to apportion responsibility or guilt? Or are we just assigning comparative levels of dickishness?

First, I don't know that I disagree with the 100% Trump answer.

My question really comes down to looking at what we have seen in the videos and from hearing from the people who were there, with this individual event to you see the teens more at fault for being there and starting chants, the Black Israelites for their taunts, or the Native American's actions?

As for KS' comments, I agree that I have a much better understanding of being in the shoes of the teenager, but as adults, can you, and all of us, put on our "empathy shoes" and see who's at fault and why?

[Kevin Seitzer]

Black Israelites are considered a hate group by Southern Law Poverty Center. Exactly how much leeway do they deserve?

I don't know. I wasn't familiar with them before this whole brouhaha. I wasn't impressed by what they were saying in the videos I saw, but on a college campus I heard a lot of crazy demonstrators and mostly learned to ignore them. I've done the same the few times I've run into people like that in real life.

When you say they are a hate group, is that a new development?

From the SPLC website:

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2008/racist-black-hebrew-israelites-becoming-more-militant

Although most Hebrew Israelites are neither explicitly racist nor anti-Semitic and do not advocate violence, there is a rising extremist sector within the Hebrew Israelite movement whose adherents believe that Jews are devilish impostors and who openly condemn whites as evil personified, deserving only death or slavery.

I didn't feel like watching hour-long videos of people shouting ugly things at each other, so I don't know what camp the Black Israelites in this situation fall into.

[baldgriff]

Actually - I think the blame goes to most everyone for allowing themselves to see a snippet and jump to conclusions. Our increasing inability to step back from video clip and ask important questions about it really concerns me. There was so much willingness to pile on to the white kid with the MAGA hat - without any context or understanding of anything that happened leading up to that situation.

WE ALL have to be better than that!

Lets be really honest about this - a white teenage male - gets called a sodomite and chanted at by a group of Black Israelites, then an American Indian guy starts banging his drum and chanting in his face. Holy shit this could have gone all sorts of sideways if that kid so much as touched the Indian Chief. So ok - yep he was wearing a MAGA hat. I think his reaction was extremely reserved and way better than anything I likely would have done when I was that age.

Where does the blame lie? With our willingness to make judgments without actually knowing what happened. Those kids and that kid specifically was judged based on something someone posted to further their agenda, and WAAAY to many people took it an ran.

[Kevin Seitzer]

First, I don't know that I disagree with the 100% Trump answer.

My question really comes down to looking at what we have seen in the videos and from hearing from the people who were there, with this individual event to you see the teens more at fault for being there and starting chants, the Black Israelites for their taunts, or the Native American's actions?

As for KS' comments, I agree that I have a much better understanding of being in the shoes of the teenager, but as adults, can you, and all of us, put on our "empathy shoes" and see who's at fault and why?

I think it's worth pinning down the question of "at fault for what?" a little better than you do here.

It seems like there are a lot of "at faults" getting mixed up together on this issue and people aren't being clear about what they mean.

If it was just about someone yelling or being rude to someone else, I don't think it would have caught the public imagination the way it did.

For example...
a) Who is at fault for the history of racist oppression and discrimation and harm in our country?
b) Who is at fault for the increasing polarization of our political bodies and discourse?
c) Who is at fault for the loss/change of expectations in our country about how we treat our elders?
d) Who is at fault for slanting an incident to reflect their perceptions of injustice and ignoring the injustice that affects the other side?

I think these questions are what inflames this incident far more than assigning fault for whether someone's feelings got hurt or someone was disrespected.

[B-Fly]

The Black Israelites are a complete wack-a-doodle fringe hate group, so to whatever extent they're not excused by legitimate mental illness, there's no reason to defend their hateful rhetoric, including all the worst slurs, and their appetite for confrontation. So they're clearly on a different level than the high schoolers or the Native American activist.

After that we get into the question of the morality of one's politics/beliefs, to a large extent, which is almost never objective and is always messy. Let's give the kids and their school and chaperones the benefit of the doubt that their moral opposition to abortion is genuine, grounded in honest religious belief, and not driven by personal misogyny (leaving aside institutional misogyny). The non-public school wants to facilitate their religiously-motivated political engagement in the Pro-Life cause, and the kids believe in it and want to speak out - that's clearly their right. Not sure where the MAGA hats came in or what the intent was with respect to the teachers/chaperones/parents/kids. Again, free expression and all that, but there would seem to be a provocative intent there that is more suspect than their participation in a Pro-Life rally, particularly given the other events/marches/protests in town. Combine the hats with the and various reports of taunting and then the chanting to draw attention to their group (presumably after and separate and apart from their Pro-Life advocacy) and you've got some material evidence of dickish/provocative intent. As for Phillips, I don't know what to believe regarding his expressed interest in diffusing the situation. He also had a right to march and reason to feel his group's ongoing march was being disrespected and diverted from by both the Black Israelites and the Covington kids and their crossfire. He probably shouldn't have initiated a nose-to-nose stare-down with a teenager, however. That's arguably a bit dickish.

[In the Corn]

The Black Israelites are a complete wack-a-doodle fringe hate group, so to whatever extent they're not excused by legitimate mental illness, there's no reason to defend their hateful rhetoric, including all the worst slurs, and their appetite for confrontation. So they're clearly on a different level than the high schoolers or the Native American activist.

After that we get into the question of the morality of one's politics/beliefs, to a large extent, which is almost never objective and is always messy. Let's give the kids and their school and chaperones the benefit of the doubt that their moral opposition to abortion is genuine, grounded in honest religious belief, and not driven by personal misogyny (leaving aside institutional misogyny). The non-public school wants to facilitate their religiously-motivated political engagement in the Pro-Life cause, and the kids believe in it and want to speak out - that's clearly their right. Not sure where the MAGA hats came in or what the intent was with respect to the teachers/chaperones/parents/kids. Again, free expression and all that, but there would seem to be a provocative intent there that is more suspect than their participation in a Pro-Life rally, particularly given the other events/marches/protests in town. Combine the hats with the and various reports of taunting and then the chanting to draw attention to their group (presumably after and separate and apart from their Pro-Life advocacy) and you've got some material evidence of dickish/provocative intent. As for Phillips, I don't know what to believe regarding his expressed interest in diffusing the situation. He also had a right to march and reason to feel his group's ongoing march was being disrespected and diverted from by both the Black Israelites and the Covington kids and their crossfire. He probably shouldn't have initiated a nose-to-nose stare-down with a teenager, however. That's arguably a bit dickish.

This is a quality breakdown of what I'm talking about.

[TranaGreg]

...
a) Who is at fault for the history of racist oppression and discrimation and harm in our country?
b) Who is at fault for the increasing polarization of our political bodies and discourse?
c) Who is at fault for the loss/change of expectations in our country about how we treat our elders?
d) Who is at fault for slanting an incident to reflect their perceptions of injustice and ignoring the injustice that affects the other side?
...

I'm just amazed that I'm the one to have to do this ...

a) Canada
b) Canada
c) Canada
d) Canada

[Redbirds Fan]

I think it's worth pinning down the question of "at fault for what?" a little better than you do here.

It seems like there are a lot of "at faults" getting mixed up together on this issue and people aren't being clear about what they mean.

If it was just about someone yelling or being rude to someone else, I don't think it would have caught the public imagination the way it did.

For example...
a) Who is at fault for the history of racist oppression and discrimation and harm in our country?
b) Who is at fault for the increasing polarization of our political bodies and discourse?
c) Who is at fault for the loss/change of expectations in our country about how we treat our elders?
d) Who is at fault for slanting an incident to reflect their perceptions of injustice and ignoring the injustice that affects the other side?

I think these questions are what inflames this incident far more than assigning fault for whether someone's feelings got hurt or someone was disrespected.

I could just see myself trying to explain how I had a "right" to stand there smiling, while my parents were whipping my ass for disrespecting an elder. Times have certainly changed.

(For any that don't get it, their position would have been that I should have withdrawn, rather than continue the confrontation, despite what I thought my rights were.)

[ironfist]

I think the big question here is why is a bunch of people acting like dicks front page news? Seriously who cares about this? Seems like people are only interested in this story to prove whose side is the bigger jerk. But seriously, why is this even a story?

[Sour Masher]

I think the big question here is why is a bunch of people acting like dicks front page news? Seriously who cares about this? Seems like people are only interested in this story to prove whose side is the bigger jerk. But seriously, why is this even a story?

I agree. I am perplexed by how big this non-story got. Even as an example of how irresponsible "hot take" journalism can be in a world where we want info immediately, even when it may not be fully accurate, as long as it fits our preconceived notions, it is but one is an ever growing mountain of such examples.

But since it is an example of sources Trump has been critical of as biased, it plays into the narrative well, so I guess i get why some have clung to it.