Election 2020

[revo]

I won't ask what the other 4 are....

Putting him first would be too disrespectful. If we take wars out of the mix, he's probably first on a list of worst self-made American disasters.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Putting him first would be too disrespectful. If we take wars out of the mix, he's probably first on a list of worst self-made American disasters.

Native American genocide and slavery + segregation have to be pretty high on the list.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I won't ask what the other 4 are....

Eric, Ivanka, Don Jr and the McRib

[madducks]

Eric, Ivanka, Don Jr and the McRib

Unlike the others, the McRib gets my vote.

[DMT]

And before Trump, when was the last time a significant portion of the population did not trust the results of a presidential election? Referring to 2016 is just proving my point. Trump has degraded our national politics since he started his campaign to delegitimize Obama's presidency.

2000, not that long ago.

[Sour Masher]

2000, not that long ago.

What I meant by trust was trust in the entire process and fairness of an election, trust in democracy in the US. That was an entirely different situation in 2000--less than 1k votes in one state that was universally understood to be the most inept state in the union in terms of how they collected and counted votes. No one, to my memory, believed or claimed there was widespread fraud and corruption, that power brokers behind the scenes were rigging the election. People were angry about hanging chads, butterfly ballots, and how Florida officials were pressured into certifying too quickly in the wake of legitimate concerns for a razor thin margin of victory in one state that would decide the election. The anger was very targeted and had far more merit. This is a very different thing Trump is doing, and has done all along, and it is leading in an anger not focused on any one case or claim of merit, but a general anger about losing. His claims are more sweeping and consistent with his deep state attacks and QAnon absurdity. It is different and dangerous.

[DMT]

That was an entirely different situation--less than 1k votes in one state that was universally understood to be the most inept state in the union in terms of how they collected and counted votes. No one, to my memory, believed or claimed there was widespread fraud and corruption, that power brokers behind the scenes were rigging the election. People were angry about hanging chads, butterfly ballots, and how Florida officials were pressured into certifying too quickly in the wake of legitimate concerns for a razor thin margin of victory in one state that would decide the election. The anger was very targeted and had far more merit. This is a very different thing Trump is doing, and has done all along.

Right, but the underlying result, the belief that the wrong person won the election, was the same.

[Sour Masher]

Right, but the underlying result, the belief that the wrong person won the election, was the same.

I edited my post to be clearer. You are right, but my point is that the type of anger is different here. Trump continues to try to undermine faith in any system that leads to a bad outcome for him, regardless of facts or evidence, and it is working. The anger and distrust is far broader with Trump and his followers.

[Ken]

Right, but the underlying result, the belief that the wrong person won the election, was the same.

I tend to agree with SM though, it's not the belief that the wrong person won that is the big issue here. It's the idea that there's this big conspiracy and the entire election system is both flawed and vulnerable. It undermines our ability to trust in the election itself. Tearing apart the central core of democracy, the vote.

[DMT]

I tend to agree with SM though, it's not the belief that the wrong person won that is the big issue here. It's the idea that there's this big conspiracy and the entire election system is both flawed and vulnerable. It undermines our ability to trust in the election itself. Tearing apart the central core of democracy, the vote.

Yea I'm not disputing his argument, nor trying to underplay how toxic and destructive Trump has been. But even in 2016 there were plenty of people out there who refused to believe that Trump legitimately won. Hell, I didn't believe it for awhile.

[DMT]

I edited my post to be clearer. You are right, but my point is that the type of anger is different here. Trump continues to try to undermine faith in any system that leads to a bad outcome for him, regardless of facts or evidence, and it is working. The anger and distrust is far broader with Trump and his followers.

No question, but Trump is just a sore loser and has claimed fraud every time he has lost anything. The fact that so many people have committed so much of their identities to aligning with his malignant narcissism is certainly concerning.

[heyelander]

Native American genocide and slavery + segregation have to be pretty high on the list.

Japanese internment camps

[revo]

Native American genocide and slavery + segregation have to be pretty high on the list.

Destroying faith in our government, after 244 years, because of a single man's bitching, combined with resurging negative attitudes towards minorities because of the same man's rhetoric is a pretty bad double whammy.

If I said he was the most damaging American in our long history, I think I'd be hard-pressed to get another contender.

[DMT]

Destroying faith in our government, after 244 years, because of a single man's bitching, combined with resurging negative attitudes towards minorities because of the same man's rhetoric is a pretty bad double whammy.

If I said he was the most damaging American in our long history, I think I'd be hard-pressed to get another contender.

Yeah, Trump is certainly #1 in our lifetimes IMO. Other top-5 contenders:
Dick Cheney
Mitch McConnell
Rush Limbaugh
Koch Brothers

[Kevin Seitzer]

Destroying faith in our government, after 244 years, because of a single man's bitching, combined with resurging negative attitudes towards minorities because of the same man's rhetoric is a pretty bad double whammy.

If I said he was the most damaging American in our long history, I think I'd be hard-pressed to get another contender.

Sadly, yes. It's hard to think of any one person singularly responsible for the awful racial history or even the Civil War. Eugene McCarthy was pretty bad, but didn't have the reach of a president. Robert McNamara screwed up a bunch of stuff in Vietnam, but he wasn't solely responsible for that, and again, his damage was limited in scope in a way that Trump's is not. Trump and his supporters have damaged our democratic institutions and practices to such a degree that many of them will probably not recover.