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Thread: Election 2020

  1. #2111
    All Star GwynnInTheHall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Jude View Post
    https://www.factcheck.org/2019/08/ha...rown-shooting/

    Harris and Warren both claiming that the guy in Ferguson, Mo. was "murdered" by a cop 5 years ago.

    Now, if someone still believes that, that's fine.

    if a Presidential candidate wants to say, "Of course we all know that an African-American President's African-American Attorney General concluded the following - but I don't care. They covered the whole thing up and lied about the evidence. I still call it murder," that's fine, too.

    when they forget that last part - well, if I didn't know any better, I'd think they were pandering for votes, since I'm pretty sure the majority of Democrats never read a word of the blocks below (but maybe you can talk me out of that one).

    the worst part is what they DID find was incredibly disturbing in its own right: a systemic harassment of people of color by the police department over many years, making their lives a living hell. that's the real takeaway. but maybe it didn't test well in focus groups?

    "the Obama administration investigation, conducted by the Criminal Section of the Department of Justice Civil Rights Division, the United States Attorney’s Office for the Eastern District of Missouri and the FBI, found that “the evidence does not support an indictment of [officer] Darren Wilson.”

    "the evidence does not establish that the shots fired by Wilson were objectively unreasonable under federal law. The physical evidence establishes that Wilson shot Brown once in the hand, at close range, while Wilson sat in his police SUV, struggling with Brown for control of Wilson’s gun. Wilson then shot Brown several more times from a distance of at least two feet after Brown ran away from Wilson and then turned and faced him. There are no witness accounts that federal prosecutors, and likewise a jury, would credit to support the conclusion that Wilson fired at Brown from behind. With the exception of the two wounds to Brown’s right arm, which indicate neither bullet trajectory nor the direction in which Brown was moving when he was struck, the medical examiners’ reports are in agreement that the entry wounds from the latter gunshots were to the front of Brown’s body, establishing that Brown was facing Wilson when these shots were fired. This includes the fatal shot to the top of Brown’s head. The physical evidence also establishes that Brown moved forward toward Wilson after he turned around to face him. The physical evidence is corroborated by multiple eyewitnesses.

    Those eyewitnesses “stated that Brown appeared to pose a physical threat to Wilson as he moved toward Wilson.”

    "Multiple credible witnesses corroborate virtually every material aspect of Wilson’s account and are consistent with the physical evidence. Even if the evidence established that Wilson’s actions were unreasonable, the government would also have to prove that Wilson acted willfully, i.e. that he acted with a specific intent to violate the law. As discussed above, Wilson’s stated intent for shooting Brown was in response to a perceived deadly threat."

    "The DOJ investigation found: “Witness accounts suggesting that Brown was standing still with his hands raised in an unambiguous signal of surrender when Wilson shot Brown are inconsistent with the physical evidence, are otherwise not credible because of internal inconsistencies, or are not credible because of inconsistencies with other credible evidence.”
    I put very little into any investigation which looks into an officer related shooting death no matter who's doing the investigating.

    It's been abundantly clear throughout history (and even more evident today) that there are different issuances of Justice between the Rich and powerful and the poor and non influential, between people of color and white america and between the police and those they are sworn to protect and serve.

    There are those in this country who deify members of the police force, give them absolute benefit of the doubt. This exists throughout the system regardless of color.

    I believe there are many persons of color who've been murdered or at least killed in a manner which should be considered homicide, by police officers that were not found guilty by a judge or jury. In fact I believe there have been less than a handful of convictions of manslaughter in the numerous incidents of Police vs people of color which ended up in the civilians death.

    I don't believe Brown should have been killed, I believe the officer lied and frankly this whole--I feared for my life--defense is bullshit--I attended a police training academy when I was young (I was thinking about a career in the Highway patrol) and we were taught that you had to be shot at, swung at or attacked before discharging your firearm. Now you can shoot for whatever reason and say you were scared--These kinds of cops should not wear a badge let lone wield a gun.

    While I wouldn;t have used the term Murderer, Warren and Harris are spot on in their assertion that law enforcement have indeed killed persons of color for no good reason other than the color of their skin
    If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

    Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
    Martin Luther King, Jr.

  2. #2112
    you believe the officer lied, even though all of the evidence backs his version of events, per the report.

    honestly, that's fine. but it doesn't address my central point: both Harris and Warren are chickenshit for claiming this guy was "murdered" while not addressing the facts laid out in Eric Holder's report.

    call out Holder as a liar, by all means. but don't pander by trying to have it both ways. either call out Obama's AG, or STFU. and these are probably the two most likely candidates. we're going to improve race relations in the U.S. this way?

    "Warren and Harris are spot on in their assertion that law enforcement have indeed killed persons of color for no good reason other than the color of their skin"

    that's a VERY different discussion, and it's fair to say. right church, wrong pew.
    36th yr in same 12-team NL 5x5
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  3. #2113
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    Apparently Tom Steyer has met the donor threshold, needs 1 more poll at 2%, ditto for Castro. They would be 10th and 11th to qualify for debate #3. Tulsi Gabbard isn't getting the polling, but might try to stay in to make a later debate if she doesn't make this one.

    Steyer has spent more money on digital ads than anybody, including Trump. I wonder if he sees Biden slipping and wants a shot at taking over the centrist lane. Looks awful for Dems, letting some rich guy buy his way into the debate. But I guess if he wants to burn a pile of cash to siphon voters from Biden while providing another punching bag for Sanders and Warren, that isn't the worst scenario.

    If 11 qualify, I hope they still split into 2 nights for more substantive discussions.

  4. #2114
    All Star GwynnInTheHall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Jude View Post
    you believe the officer lied, even though all of the evidence backs his version of events, per the report.

    honestly, that's fine. but it doesn't address my central point: both Harris and Warren are chickenshit for claiming this guy was "murdered" while not addressing the facts laid out in Eric Holder's report.

    call out Holder as a liar, by all means. but don't pander by trying to have it both ways. either call out Obama's AG, or STFU. and these are probably the two most likely candidates. we're going to improve race relations in the U.S. this way?

    "Warren and Harris are spot on in their assertion that law enforcement have indeed killed persons of color for no good reason other than the color of their skin"

    that's a VERY different discussion, and it's fair to say. right church, wrong pew.
    STFU? Well I can't be too hard on you for that as I've posted the same thing on occasion over the years, but what I will say is this. I find it terribly sad how your posts/PMs devolved into nothing more that Whataboutisms and Gotcha moments. I don;t know how you've gotten here, but I hope you find your way back soon. I miss that JJ.

    I HAVE called out and voices my disappointment with Obama and his administration on multiple occasions, do I need to address every one of my disappointments specifically so that you'll be satisfied? If so, here's a blanket admonishment of anything you might believe I'd be disappointed in so I'm covered from you calling me chickenshit.

    To your point.

    Did you read all the supporting articles regarding the brown/wilson shooting? I have, Ivé read the DOJ report, the county coroner's autopsy report PLUS her follow up where she said that she things in her report were taken out of context. The EVIDENCE? You just mentioned that you agreed there was systemic racism found in that area, do you really think it was only in the police force? Context--is EVERYTHING in this case. Murder is predetermined, well if an officer knows he can create a situation and use deadly force to get himself out of it--is that predetermination when he does start something and then kills someone? That's debatable--Like I said--I'd have convicted the guy of manslaughter--he's like Zimmerman--A guy who created a situation because he thought he was the man and when it looked like he was getting his ass kicked (deservedly so) he kills the guy he provoked in the first place.

    Yes walking in the middle of the street is a crime in Ferguson, one that's been argued against for decades, the Walking Black moniker it's brought about is because it's a vague law law enforcement uses to harass people of color as can be seen in the fact that %95 of all sightings of that violation are persons of color.

    The things we know for sure which everyone agrees on. Brown and Jefferson were walking in the street, Wilson drove by and yelled at the to get out of the street, Brown responded with a vulgarity at which point Wilson throws the SUV in revers and starts the confrontation. From there it's a he said/ he said with the DOJ and people like you giving the Officer, the witnesses and evidence ,which was anything but absolute the benefit of the doubt, when there were as many witnesses who refuted Wilson, the other witnesses, the ëvidence'could has been presented in ways to convict Wilson as well. BUT as you stated, the system in that area is corrupt?racist. As I've sadi, the system is slanted in favor or Law enforcement over civilians and white over black.

    Do I think he lied--Absolutely. Wilson has nothing to lose by lying and nothing to gain by being honest.

    As for Warren and Harris, Until YOU start admonishing every GOP leader, including Trump for EVERY bullshit thing they say, as for your obsession with us calling out Jessie when he gets off base, Until YOU start calling out OneJay for every idiotic thing he posts.

    Well then, take your own advice and STFU.
    If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

    Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
    Martin Luther King, Jr.

  5. #2115
    "STFU?"

    if you read a but more closely, you'll see I am talking about Warren and Harris - not you. same goes for "chickenshit," as you can see. I think you got stuck on a narrative about me and inadvertently morphed the post into it.

    meanwhile, there is zero "whataboutism" in my post. it's not in response to any daily dopey Trump did, so that seems like an odd response to me.

    finally, you missed the entire point of my post.

    we both know that relatively few Democrats are aware that Obama's Attorney General's report didn't back up most of the popular narrative about this tragedy. Harris knows it. Warren knows it. so when they conveniently avoid challenging that report, they are full of shit. either argue that the report is bogus/corrupt/whatever - as I believe you are doing - or, well.... but don't ignore the report, ladies, to try to have it both ways. tell Democrats that you think Obama's AG was in on a coverup, or something. I would think that you would want a candidate to have those kind of stones, and be disappointed with this shameless pandering.

    you have claimed that anyone of any particular political stripe can be reasonably called out for crappy behavior. well, that's what happened.

    I hope you'll re-read my post, and choose another response. thanks.
    in golf, they call that a "mulligan."
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    2020 candidates (keep up to 11)
    SP Scherzer 44, Samardzija 1, CSmith 1, Cueto 1, Marquez 10, Eflin 10
    RP Stanek 8
    C Realmuto 13, C Posey 12, 1B Votto 27, 1O Belt 10, 1O Beaty 10, SS BCrawford 9
    OF CDickerson 17, O1 Cooper 10, Dyson 8

  6. #2116
    All Star GwynnInTheHall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Jude View Post
    "STFU?"

    if you read a but more closely, you'll see I am talking about Warren and Harris - not you. same goes for "chickenshit," as you can see. I think you got stuck on a narrative about me and inadvertently morphed the post into it.

    meanwhile, there is zero "whataboutism" in my post. it's not in response to any daily dopey Trump did, so that seems like an odd response to me.

    finally, you missed the entire point of my post.

    we both know that relatively few Democrats are aware that Obama's Attorney General's report didn't back up most of the popular narrative about this tragedy. Harris knows it. Warren knows it. so when they conveniently avoid challenging that report, they are full of shit. either argue that the report is bogus/corrupt/whatever - as I believe you are doing - or, well.... but don't ignore the report, ladies, to try to have it both ways. tell Democrats that you think Obama's AG was in on a coverup, or something.

    you have claimed that anyone of any particular political stripe can be reasonably called out for crappy behavior. well, that's what happened.

    I hope you'll re-read my post, and choose another response. thanks.
    I did and I misread it (though correct punctuation could have prevented that as I interpreted the new sentence as engaging me in the conversation) And so, I apologize for what i thought was an equitable response to you given the idea you'd said it to me.

    I agree not many are versed in Holders report, nor quite a lot outside of Ferguson on fire, BLM and Brown/Wilson. Have you seen the documentary "Whose Streets?" If not, you should. Sure it's slanted, but there are nuggets in everything. Take from it what you will.

    I do stand by my assertion that you have lost something recently, maybe due to the constant done in here or maybe something that's none of my business, but again, I hope you find it because I sincerely do miss the tone of the old JJ.

    Until then, StayinTheForumUntilwheneveryoufeellike
    If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

    Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
    Martin Luther King, Jr.

  7. #2117
    no worries. I can understand how you read it how you did.
    36th yr in same 12-team NL 5x5
    horrendous final week dropped me from a shot at 3rd to 6th
    won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84

    2020 candidates (keep up to 11)
    SP Scherzer 44, Samardzija 1, CSmith 1, Cueto 1, Marquez 10, Eflin 10
    RP Stanek 8
    C Realmuto 13, C Posey 12, 1B Votto 27, 1O Belt 10, 1O Beaty 10, SS BCrawford 9
    OF CDickerson 17, O1 Cooper 10, Dyson 8

  8. #2118
    Welcome to the Big Leagues, Kid Teenwolf's Avatar
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    Bernie Sanders has called the drug manufacturers who charge too much "murderers". Does that also piss you off? Since they aren't technically murderers? Such a massive outrage in defense of a piece of fucking trash like Darren Wilson shows some truly strange priorities, to me.

    But I've been assaulted and threatened up close and personal by a piece of shit police officer for doing the equivalent of "walking in the street", so I have a slightly different perspective than most. I've also seen how completely protected from legal consequence police themselves are. So I do believe that a community bully with a gun, who instigated a fight and ends it with a gun, is a fucking murderer, whether he's wearing a police uniform or gang colors. Call me crazy.

  9. #2119
    if only I had posted this:

    "the worst part is what they DID find was incredibly disturbing in its own right: a systemic harassment of people of color by the police department over many years, making their lives a living hell. that's the real takeaway."

    wait, I did.

    but it doesn't matter.

    nobody except for GWIH wants to comment on Warren or Harris cynically pandering on a serious issue. ok.

    I give up.

    if the goal is to extinguish all voices not in lockstep with the majority community sentiment, victory is nearly at hand.

    the celebration will be high fives into empty air.

    enjoy!
    36th yr in same 12-team NL 5x5
    horrendous final week dropped me from a shot at 3rd to 6th
    won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84

    2020 candidates (keep up to 11)
    SP Scherzer 44, Samardzija 1, CSmith 1, Cueto 1, Marquez 10, Eflin 10
    RP Stanek 8
    C Realmuto 13, C Posey 12, 1B Votto 27, 1O Belt 10, 1O Beaty 10, SS BCrawford 9
    OF CDickerson 17, O1 Cooper 10, Dyson 8

  10. #2120
    Welcome to the Big Leagues, Kid In the Corn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Jude View Post

    if the goal is to extinguish all voices not in lockstep with the majority community sentiment, victory is nearly at hand.
    It does seem like Rotojunkie is becoming more and more an echo (not [echo]) chamber.

    It's truly sad that the conservative and moderate voices here have been shouted down and demeaned that they no longer want to post.
    "Looks like I picked a bad day to give up sniffing glue.
    - Steven McCrosky (Lloyd Bridges) in Airplane

    i have epiphanies like that all the time. for example i was watching a basketball game today and realized pom poms are like a pair of tits. there's 2 of them. they're round. they shake. women play with them. thus instead of having two, cheerleaders have four boobs.
    - nullnor, speaking on immigration law in AZ.

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