Robert Mueller investigation

[Judge Jude]

I'm not sure what to make of Rosenstein, frankly.

Comey screwed the pooch on Hillary emails, twice. not sure when Comey started leaking stuff to the media or when Trump found out about it. but that would be a legit reason to fire him if he "went rogue."

the whole administration has been bizarre. Comey's self-aggrandizing book and his preening book tour were ..... strange.

anyone who doesn't at least read the Taibbi excerpts I posted and open up at least a 1 percent "oh shit, could this be right" window in their brain - well, I wouldn't know what to say.

Strzok, McCabe, and a number of others involved in the grand scheme of things acted unethically, for sure. I'm just amazed at how there are people - and I'm not pointing at anyone here, seriously - so far down the Trump Derangement Syndrome path that even if the entire dossier was fabricated (and by agents of the other Presidential candidate, no less), it wouldn't matter because TDS.

I'm not near the finish line on that saga yet, but I'm also not afraid of whatever fact-finding tells us either way. Same went for the Mueller report.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Comey, I believe on the whole was an honorable public servant who was faithful and good at his job, such that I would trust him to be telling the truth on what Trump said to him. But I also think he sometimes thought too highly of himself, or thought that the burden was on him to carry the entire justice system of the United States, such that he made bad decisions about how to handle that, his statements on the Hillary email thing being an example of that.

Having said that, I don't believe for a second that Trump fired Comey because he was too hard on Hillary in public or that Rosenstein's explanation wasn't created to justify Trump's decision after the fact. In normal circumstances that would be unfortunate but par for the course. In this particular situation, it becomes highly suspicious. Many Republican congresspeople warned him against doing it before he did, just for that very reason. I don't think it takes Trump Derangement Syndrome to worry that Comey's firing was one major act in a series of acts along those lines.

I guess I've never been confident that the dossier was completely truthful, mostly truthful, reliable, anything in that neighborhood. But again, I don't see how the Mueller investigation rested on the dossier. We don't know yet what it rested on, but there were many public sources from other directions that raised suspicions about the legality of what the Trump campaign was doing, both with regard to Russian election interference (which was in the purview of the Mueller investigation) and with regard to seeking financial favors in exchange for political favors (not in the purview of the Mueller investigation).

[Judge Jude]

agree with practically all of that.

I would just add that I want to know what prompted a judge to issue those FISA warrants in the first place.

I hope everyone does - just as they should want everything in the Mueller report that can be revealed, from a practical standpoint, to be revealed. Let's air out the laundry.

[Kevin Seitzer]

agree with practically all of that.

I would just add that I want to know what prompted a judge to issue those FISA warrants in the first place.

I hope everyone does - just as they should want everything in the Mueller report that can be revealed, from a practical standpoint, to be revealed. Let's air out the laundry.

Agreed.

And I would add that Trump is extremely worried about his image and is extremely insecure about the fact that he has no business running the country. The fact that he is so focused on this investigation makes me believe very strongly that he did things wrong and shameful that he is trying to hide. Whether they are criminal probably matters less to him than whether he thinks it will make people question how great he is and how historic his election victory supposedly was.

[Judge Jude]

I think that's all pretty clear.

[onejayhawk]

You don't actually believe Rod Rosenstein was the person who initiated Comey's firing.

Do you support the Comey firing? You believe it was aboveboard?

I do believe Rosenstein sent a memo that initiated the actual request for a resignation. I also believe it was a matter of time, so you have a point. Of course, it was above board. Comey served at the will of the President and could be fired for any reason or no reason. Support is beside the point. Comey made it plain since he left the FBI that it was the right move. Timing is the only issue, hence Rosenstein.

Comey, I believe on the whole was an honorable public servant who was faithful and good at his job, such that I would trust him to be telling the truth on what Trump said to him. But I also think he sometimes thought too highly of himself, or thought that the burden was on him to carry the entire justice system of the United States, such that he made bad decisions about how to handle that, his statements on the Hillary email thing being an example of that.

Having said that, I don't believe for a second that Trump fired Comey because he was too hard on Hillary in public or that Rosenstein's explanation wasn't created to justify Trump's decision after the fact. In normal circumstances that would be unfortunate but par for the course. In this particular situation, it becomes highly suspicious. Many Republican congresspeople warned him against doing it before he did, just for that very reason. I don't think it takes Trump Derangement Syndrome to worry that Comey's firing was one major act in a series of acts along those lines.

I guess I've never been confident that the dossier was completely truthful, mostly truthful, reliable, anything in that neighborhood. But again, I don't see how the Mueller investigation rested on the dossier. We don't know yet what it rested on, but there were many public sources from other directions that raised suspicions about the legality of what the Trump campaign was doing, both with regard to Russian election interference (which was in the purview of the Mueller investigation) and with regard to seeking financial favors in exchange for political favors (not in the purview of the Mueller investigation).

I do not agree with the first part of this. He has not been honorable since leaving the FBI so I think there is no reason to think he was more honorable during his tenure. Nor was he good at his job. Rather, he was a political hack patting his own back and feathering his nest.

I agree he was not fired for being too easy on Hillary, though he clearly was. In that regard, he was one in a crowd. Comey was fired for insubordination. As you say, it has become larger after the fact that it was in reality.

J

[nots]

Pretty strong takedown of the media’s hyping of the investigation:

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/taibbi-russia-investigation-conclusions-813171/

Lot of credibility was shredded during this ordeal.

[Judge Jude]

yeah, that's another piece from Matt Taibbi, the guy I quoted here over the weekend.

I don't know why this bizarre Presidency seems to obscure the mass media bungling here for so many. we need journalistic standards no matter what - even with a Trump in office.

There may be 1000 pieces of more dirt on Trump in the report - but if Mueller and his team interviewed 500 people (they did) and can't find evidence that anyone in his camp colluded with the Russian government, maybe it's time to let that angle go.

[B-Fly]

There may be 1000 pieces of more dirt on Trump in the report - but if Mueller and his team interviewed 500 people (they did) and can't find evidence that anyone in his camp colluded with the Russian government, maybe it's time to let that angle go.

It's absolutely time to let that angle go, and I think Pelosi and Schumer at least know it. Focus on Trump's latest effort to kill the ACA and on substantive policy proposals, and work to defeat Trump and the GOP at the ballot box in 2020. Pushing additional Congressional investigations at this point will, IMO, just help Trump and hurt the Democrats in 2020.

[Sour Masher]

It's absolutely time to let that angle go, and I think Pelosi and Schumer at least know it. Focus on Trump's latest effort to kill the ACA and on substantive policy proposals, and work to defeat Trump and the GOP at the ballot box in 2020. Pushing additional Congressional investigations at this point will, IMO, just help Trump and hurt the Democrats in 2020.

I've thought from day one too many were wrongly putting too many eggs in this basket. I thought this was an important issue worthy of investigation, but for a very long time, we've known nothing and yet the left-leaning 24 hour news networks obsessed over every non-detail of this thing. Not that I watched those networks much before, but this thing made them completely unwatchable for the last two years. I still think there is a there, there, but I always suspected Trump was cunning enough to cover his tracks, so never expected much to come from this. There has been, for his entire presidency, more important and immediate concerns to focus on with Trump. The fact that those were often pushed aside for coverage and analysis of nothing new, while implying inside knowledge that there would be damning truths revealed any day now was absolutely a failing of those media outlets. It reminded me of a religious doomsday cult. They kept stringing followers along with the promise that any day now, Trump's world was going to end.

[Judge Jude]

"I always suspected Trump was cunning enough to cover his tracks"

I see a lot of this - he's both a total simpleton, and a Machiavellian 4th-dimensional chess player.
nice work if you can get it

[Kevin Seitzer]

"I always suspected Trump was cunning enough to cover his tracks"

I see a lot of this - he's both a total simpleton, and a Machiavellian 4th-dimensional chess player.
nice work if you can get it

While I do think you are not completely off base to point this out, I also think there is an element of truth in what Sour Masher is saying.

Trump is not an intellectual, and more than that, he knows he can't compete in politics as an intellectual. Anything that doesn't make him look good, he's not motivated to do. So he can come off as a real simpleton and make stupid statements and stupid decisions because he doesn't care about educating himself. But on the other hand, he is good at manipulating people and situations for his benefit. He knows how to read a room and come out a winner.

Sometimes those two features are in competition and one will overtake the other. Sometimes his lack of education or motivation to understand a subject will let someone else outmaneuver him because they have a better understanding of the facts at play. In addition, sometimes people can outmaneuver him by playing to his ego. Which is back to the "simpleton" take. But other times he correctly perceives that it doesn't matter what he knows about a subject if he knows how to communicate emotionally and get people on his side. He knows that if you have him in a losing position on "the facts" that it is dumb for him to play against you on the facts, so he changes the rules of the game. He is an expert at that. And most of the time it works so he doesn't need to have a good handle on facts. (Whether that's a good quality in a president is left as an exercise for the reader.)

I think he really is both a simpleton and a master manipulator, just on different dimensions. Some have called him a narcissist, and if you look into what that personality entails, you can see elements of this simpleton/Machiavellian dynamic at play.

[TS Garp]

While I do think you are not completely off base to point this out, I also think there is an element of truth in what Sour Masher is saying.

Trump is not an intellectual, and more than that, he knows he can't compete in politics as an intellectual. Anything that doesn't make him look good, he's not motivated to do. So he can come off as a real simpleton and make stupid statements and stupid decisions because he doesn't care about educating himself. But on the other hand, he is good at manipulating people and situations for his benefit. He knows how to read a room and come out a winner.

Sometimes those two features are in competition and one will overtake the other. Sometimes his lack of education or motivation to understand a subject will let someone else outmaneuver him because they have a better understanding of the facts at play. In addition, sometimes people can outmaneuver him by playing to his ego. Which is back to the "simpleton" take. But other times he correctly perceives that it doesn't matter what he knows about a subject if he knows how to communicate emotionally and get people on his side. He knows that if you have him in a losing position on "the facts" that it is dumb for him to play against you on the facts, so he changes the rules of the game. He is an expert at that. And most of the time it works so he doesn't need to have a good handle on facts. (Whether that's a good quality in a president is left as an exercise for the reader.)

I think he really is both a simpleton and a master manipulator, just on different dimensions. Some have called him a narcissist, and if you look into what that personality entails, you can see elements of this simpleton/Machiavellian dynamic at play.

That's a very good and thoughtful analysis. His tactics are very difficult to deal with and prepare for. The "if I win, it's an historic victory the likes of which have never been seen but if you win it's because you cheated and it was rigged" seems completely childish (and it is), but it's been shockingly effective, both with his election campaign and now with the Mueller investigation.

[Judge Jude]

the points raised on Trump's narcissism are plausible, at the very least.

but I don't see how any of those observations explain why and how he would be "cunning enough to cover his tracks" re collusion with Russia. if anything, it would seem to suggest the opposite.

also, "if I win, it's an historic victory the likes of which have never been seen but if you win it's because you cheated and it was rigged" - that DOES sound familiar! I heard a lot of it in late 2016 and it never completely went away. even this Mueller report can't kill it for many.

[nots]

That's a very good and thoughtful analysis. His tactics are very difficult to deal with and prepare for. The "if I win, it's an historic victory the likes of which have never been seen but if you win it's because you cheated and it was rigged" seems completely childish (and it is), but it's been shockingly effective, both with his election campaign and now with the Mueller investigation.

I think the blue team are the ones that hold tight to the ‘you won because you cheated’ canard.