Robert Mueller investigation

[Judge Jude]

What is the big picture, in your opinion?

the last time a US President was embroiled in a sex scandal, his political party - elected officials, handlers, media people, you name it - came up with all sorts of ridiculous rationalizations. they even got millions of decent people to parrot the talking point of "oh, c'mon, everybody lies about sex under oath - or they would if need be." when you can get that many honest people to claim they would act in such an unsavory way when it isn't even true... well, you're onto something.

once again we have a somewhat similar situation. now, this President's array of transgressions is far broader and worse than Clinton's (assuming those private plane trips with Jeffrey Epstein were purely for humanitarian purposes, and that Trump's chumminess with Epstein wasn't for debauchery of the highest order). but the numerous women savaged by the Clinton cabal in the 1990s are just as far more credible than Cohen is.

any pretense that today's dog-and-pony show had some sort of noble purpose - and that this President's enablers are uniquely suited to lapdoggery, given their political affiliation - is laughable on its face.

Watergate was different. As the web of corruption unraveled, the President's support from members of Congress in his party faded away, even as it was obvious that it would lead to a bloodbath for that party in the next few elections.

that ship has sailed, alas. we have met the enemy - and it is us.

[onejayhawk]

I'm going to wait to see what Mueller's got. If he's got strong evidence of both pre-election (collusion to sway the election, campaign finance violations) and post-inauguration (obstruction of justice, emoluments) crimes by the President, I think we'll have an impeachment, and the public's reaction to the report and the impeachment investigation and articles of impeachment will ultimately drive the considerations of the 20-25 Senators whose vote to convict is most likely to be sway-able.

And what if it was a witch hunt like many have claimed?

J

[Kevin Seitzer]

the last time a US President was embroiled in a sex scandal, his political party - elected officials, handlers, media people, you name it - came up with all sorts of ridiculous rationalizations. they even got millions of decent people to parrot the talking point of "oh, c'mon, everybody lies about sex under oath - or they would if need be." when you can get that many honest people to claim they would act in such an unsavory way when it isn't even true... well, you're onto something.

once again we have a somewhat similar situation. now, this President's array of transgressions is far broader and worse than Clinton's (assuming those private plane trips with Jeffrey Epstein were purely for humanitarian purposes, and that Trump's chumminess with Epstein wasn't for debauchery of the highest order). but the numerous women savaged by the Clinton cabal in the 1990s are just as far more credible than Cohen is.

any pretense that today's dog-and-pony show had some sort of noble purpose - and that this President's enablers are uniquely suited to lapdoggery, given their political affiliation - is laughable on its face.

Watergate was different. As the web of corruption unraveled, the President's support from members of Congress in his party faded away, even as it was obvious that it would lead to a bloodbath for that party in the next few elections.

that ship has sailed, alas. we have met the enemy - and it is us.

Thanks.

Are you saying that Watergate was different because the hearings led to the unraveling of the President's support from his part, or because Watergate involved a far greater level of corruption than is present with this administration, or both?

[Judge Jude]

well, we aren't at the end game yet. this one could easily be worse.

my point was that once it was apparent that a President was aware of not only that 'third-rate burglary' but also of all sorts of inept attempts at a coverup, he lost the support of his party's elected officials in the 1970s. and rightly so.

by the 1990s, even lying under oath about an ongoing court case and credible allegations of sexual assault and a crystal-clear abuse of the power of the office didn't move the needle. and in 2020, the same party that vows fealty to the #metoo movement can be expected to grant that President a prominent speaking role at its national Presidential convention.

'believe the women - unless they accuse one of our favorites. in that case, even documented proof of multiple affairs and credible claims by other women of crimes..... meh.'

and if Ted Kennedy was still alive, he'd still be lionized. geesh, he only left one woman for dead and that was decades ago. everybody gets a mulligan, for Pete's sake, when it comes to a dead body!

so pardon me - so to speak - if I don't go all-in only on all the sucking up going on in the Republican Party these days. the sooner both sides realize the current sorry state of affairs we are all in, the better.

[Kevin Seitzer]

If I understand you correctly, JJ, it's not about who scored political points for their side today, but that the American people as a whole are losers when our standards for public office have dropped this low?

[Judge Jude]

yes.

I hated Gerald Ford at first for pardoning Nixon, who I wanted to see roasted slowly on a pit.
but Ford did what was best for the country, at risk to his Presidency - which he indeed lost to Jimmy Carter in 1976.

the downward spiral

President Kennedy: "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country."

President Trump: "I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."

[madducks]

Vacate the Presidency? I believe that Trump will come out of all of this unscathed

This. It will be business as usual for the modern day "Teflon Don" and his desensitized supporters.

[Teenwolf]

This. It will be business as usual for the modern day "Teflon Don" and his desensitized supporters.

Your lack of faith in institutional powers is interesting. I can see why that's a valid perspective, given so many areas of governmental failure.

I think this one is different. Don Jr. is under investigation by SDNY, and he is likely to be charged with at least the same crimes as Cohen (lying to Congress about the Trump Tower meeting intent and campaign finance for signing off on the $35K checks). He could also face charges as part of a larger conspiracy charge. So if Don Jr. is set to face prison for 5-10 years (remember, Cohen got 3 years despite extensive co-operation)... do we really believe Trump wouldnt make a deal to leave office to protect his children from prison? Maybe Don Jr, but not Ivanka, and she's exposed here too.

Final point, POTUS has no pardon power over state crimes. Jr is cooked.

[madducks]

Your lack of faith in institutional powers is interesting. I can see why that's a valid perspective, given so many areas of governmental failure.

I think this one is different. Don Jr. is under investigation by SDNY, and he is likely to be charged with at least the same crimes as Cohen (lying to Congress about the Trump Tower meeting intent and campaign finance for signing off on the $35K checks). He could also face charges as part of a larger conspiracy charge. So if Don Jr. is set to face prison for 5-10 years (remember, Cohen got 3 years despite extensive co-operation)... do we really believe Trump wouldnt make a deal to leave office to protect his children from prison? Maybe Don Jr, but not Ivanka, and she's exposed here too.

Final point, POTUS has no pardon power over state crimes. Jr is cooked.

I hope that you are right and that i am wrong.

[madducks]

Fox News' Sean Hannity said Michael Cohen gave him information on the Stormy Daniels payments, potentially walking himself into a subpoena.

[heyelander]

Your lack of faith in institutional powers is interesting. I can see why that's a valid perspective, given so many areas of governmental failure.

I think this one is different. Don Jr. is under investigation by SDNY, and he is likely to be charged with at least the same crimes as Cohen (lying to Congress about the Trump Tower meeting intent and campaign finance for signing off on the $35K checks). He could also face charges as part of a larger conspiracy charge. So if Don Jr. is set to face prison for 5-10 years (remember, Cohen got 3 years despite extensive co-operation)... do we really believe Trump wouldnt make a deal to leave office to protect his children from prison? Maybe Don Jr, but not Ivanka, and she's exposed here too.

Final point, POTUS has no pardon power over state crimes. Jr is cooked.

I am not even remotely a Trump fan, but I would be very disappointed in whoever proffered such a deal. "Duly elected President, if you step down from your position, we will not prosecute your child... continue to serve the will of the people and we will send him to jail."

[The Feral Slasher]

I am not even remotely a Trump fan, but I would be very disappointed in whoever proffered such a deal. "Duly elected President, if you step down from your position, we will not prosecute your child... continue to serve the will of the people and we will send him to jail."

I never figured you for a russian bot....strange

[The Feral Slasher]

I am not even remotely a Trump fan, but I would be very disappointed in whoever proffered such a deal. "Duly elected President, if you step down from your position, we will not prosecute your child... continue to serve the will of the people and we will send him to jail."

I actually think u make a good point her

[heyelander]

I actually think u make a good point her

thanks... very disappointed is light for my reaction to this scenario... I'd actually picket for trump! I think teenwolf has hit on the singular cause that would make me support Trump.

[Teenwolf]

thanks... very disappointed is light for my reaction to this scenario... I'd actually picket for trump! I think teenwolf has hit on the singular cause that would make me support Trump.

I think that's the deal Trump will look to push for, as the POTUS is his only leverage.

I believe that the powers that be will look to avoid large scale embarrassment, and putting Trump in jail would be a national disaster for the image of the US. They will look to allow him to ride off into the sunset any way possible. Giving up POTUS in exchange for immunity seems like his only deal to make. Does anybody see an alternative to him leaving? He's a wannabe dictator, he only leaves if he gets something for it.