Why do so many people believe in God(s) when there is no proof that God(s) exist?

[Fresno Bob]

Since we are all in agreement that there is no proof of the existence of God(s), I guess the fundamental question becomes then "Why do so many people believe in God(s) when there is no proof?"

[DMT]

Since we are all in agreement that there is no proof of the existence of God(s), I guess the fundamental question becomes then "Why do so many people believe in God(s) when there is no proof?"

As I said in the other thread, terror of their own oblivion is my best guess.

[Gregg]

There is enough evidence to come to a logical choice.

And then there is the personal experience that may be self proof, but would not be used or applied in this type of discussion.

[Gregg]

As I said in the other thread, terror of their own oblivion is my best guess.

That Jesus is a crafty one, using this to further His own agenda of spreading peace and love.

[onejayhawk]

God is easy to prove subjectively. Anyone that wants to know simply needs to search diligently and be open. It's the objective proof that eludes us and always will.

J

[DMT]

That Jesus is a crafty one, using this to further His own agenda of spreading peace and love.

By promising a seat next to him in heaven for eternity, indeed he is!

[Gregg]

So gentlemen, if I may ask. If we are all in agreement that Jesus is good and worth following. I want to follow him (some days are better than others). Why is it so important to convince me that He is not who I think He is?

[DMT]

I'm just offering my thoughts because I think humanity needs to move beyond religion.

ETA: I'm not personally trying to convert you away from Christianity but I don't think it's a benefit to our species.

[TranaGreg]

So gentlemen, if I may ask. If we are all in agreement that Jesus is good and worth following. I want to follow him (some days are better than others). Why is it so important to convince me that He is not who I think He is?

My opinion - it is not at all important to convince you - or anyone - that he is not God. In fact I specifically try to avoid doing that. I only posted in this thread to address the very specific question re: whether there is proof that he/she exists. That actually I find to be an interesting academic question.

I absolutely allow for people to believe in whatever they want. But that is a very different question than the proof one that we started with.

[Gregg]

I sincerely appreciate all of the responses and dialog.

[Sour Masher]

So gentlemen, if I may ask. If we are all in agreement that Jesus is good and worth following. I want to follow him (some days are better than others). Why is it so important to convince me that He is not who I think He is?

I don't think convincing you specifically of that is important. You seem like a good person trying to live a good life through your faith. More generally, though, I think there is a huge difference between a follower of an ideology or philosophy and a follower of a religion that claims its texts are the sacred and immutable words of God (never mind the many translations these perfect words have gone through). That leads to blind, unwavering faith that both stifles questioning and possibly growth, as well as causes intense conflict and discord.

The idea that an idea comes right from an all knowing creator that gives an ultimate reward to followers and eternal damnation to heathens is stunting to human development as a species. Such ideas cannot be questioned. To do so has lead to torture, executions, wars. It leads to people being killed for merely depicting a prophet, in the case of Islam. It takes conflict and disagreement to such an extreme level, because the stakes are so high. What is at stake is your eternal soul and your place in paradise forever, or eternal damnation. All of that not to even mention how religious zealots, so focused on salvation as they are, are easy targets for predators poised to exploit them. Religious leaders, politicians, slave owners, even parents and teachers, anyone in a position of authority can and have manipulated the blind spots blind faith creates to suit their own ends.

ETA: Christianity that includes belief in Jesus as the son of God is especially troubling to me, because it shifts the need away from living a life devoted to being Christ like to one simply of being devoted to Christ as God. A person who lives every day as Jesus taught us to live in terms of how we treat each other, but does not accept Jesus as his only path to salvation, is damned. But a person who lives a cruel, horrible life, but converts and embraces Jesus as the son of God on his deathbed is saved.

Jesus becomes not a model to follow but a cheat code to get into heaven. All of our good deeds are worthless to God in the faith. The only path to salvation is submission to the idea that Jesus is God. To not believe that means eternal damnation, no matter how closely you follow his teachings. Belief in who is the gatekeeper to heaven, who holds the power, is more important than the actual lessons of how to live one's life. It's not what you know, it's who you know that matters. If Hitler truly converted and accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and savior right st the end, he goes to heaven. But if you lived a life of charity and love, but denied this fact, you don't get to join him. That is not a belief system that leads to ideal behavior by all. It would be much better to believe in his teachings about how to treat each other, and try to just live that way, each day.

It reminds me of David Bowie's speech to Jennifer Connelly at the end of the Labyrinth. Submit to me and obey me in all things, and I will give you everything. Reject me, and you lose everything, no matter what else you do.

[B-Fly]

So gentlemen, if I may ask. If we are all in agreement that Jesus is good and worth following. I want to follow him (some days are better than others). Why is it so important to convince me that He is not who I think He is?

Because faith is too often used to justify seizing or holding onto power, over peoples, over individuals, etc, in harmful ways. The problem is not what Jesus (allegedly) taught in his years on the earth. It is what the assumption of his (or G-d's) divine favor or power (and those who purport to interpret or broker that favor or power) does to individuals and societies.

[B-Fly]

Take the example of Cajamarca in 1532, when Spanish conquistador Francisco Pizarro's army of 128 or 168 (depending on source) Spanish soldiers captured Inca emperor Atahualpa, killing 7,000 Incans in the initial battle against no Spanish casualties and then quickly toppling the largest and most advanced state in the New World, with a battle-tested army of 80,000. Both the self-justification of the Spanish for conquering and slaughtering the "infidels" and the failure of the Incans to defend themselves were deeply, deeply grounded in absurd religious beliefs.

Pizarro's companions wrote of the conquest:

"The prudence, fortitude, military discipline, labors, perilous navigations, and battles of the Spaniards--vassals of the most invincible Emperor of the Roman Catholic Empire, or natural King and Lord--will cause joy to the faithful and terror to the infidels.... It will be to the glory of G-d, because they have conquered and brought to our holy Catholic Faith so vast a number of heathens, aided by His holy guidance."

[A small party was granted an audience with Atahualpa at Cajamarca, but Pizzaro had the rest of his men, with their horses, muskets and steel swords hiding in wait]

"Governor Pizarro now sent Friar Vicente de Valverde to go speak to Atahualpa in the name of G-d and the King of Spain that Atahualpa subject himself to the law of our Lord Jesus Christ and to the service of His Majesty the King of Spain. Advancing with a cross in one hand and a Bible in the other hand, and going among the Indian troops up to the place where Atahualpa was, the Friar thus addressed him: 'I am a Priest of G-d, and I teach Christians the things of G-d, and in like manner I come to teach you. What I teach is that which G-d says to us in this Book. Therefore, on the part of G-d and of the Christians, I beseech you to be their friend, for such is G-d's will, and it will be for your good.'

Atahualpa asked for the Book, that he might look at it, and the Friar gave it to him closed. Atahualpa did not know how to open the Book, and the Friar was extending his arm in doing so, when Atahualpa, in great anger, gave him a blow on the arm, not wishing that it should be opened. Then he opened it himself, and, without any astonishment at the letters and paper he threw it away from him five or six paces, his face a deep crimson.

The Friar returned to Pizarro, shouting, 'Come out! Come out, Christians! Come at these enemy dogs who reject the things of G-d. That tyrant has thrown my book of holy law to the ground! Did you not see what happened? Why remain polite and servile toward this over-proud dog when the plains are full of Indians? March out against him, for I absolve you!"

[The Spanish then proceeded to slaughter about 7,000 unarmed and panic-stricken Incans and captured Atahualpa, whom the Incans believed to be himself a divine god.]

"It was extraordinary to see so powerful a ruler captured in so short a time, when he had come with such a mighty [unarmed] army. Truly, it was not accomplished by our own forces, for there were so few of us. It was by the grace of G-d, which is great.... The Governor [Pizarro] said to Atahualpa, 'Do not take it as an insult that you have been defeated and taken prisoner, for with the Christians who come with me, though so few in number, I have conquered greater kingdoms than your [not really], and have defeated other more powerful lords than you, imposing upon them the dominion of the Emperor, whose vassal I am, and who is King of Spain and of the universal world. We come to conquer this land on his command, that all may come to a knowledge of G-d and of His Holy Catholic Faith; and by reason of our good mission, G-d, the Creator of heaven and earth and of all things in them, permits this, in order that you may know Him and come out from the bestial and diabolical life that you lead. It is for that reason that we, being so few in number, subjugate that vast host. When you have seen the errors in which you live, you will understand the good that we have done you by coming for your land by order of his Majesty the King of Spain. Our Lord permitted that your pride should be brought low and that no Indian should be able to offend a Christian.' "

[Because of their own foolish faith in Atahualpa's divinity, the broader "army" of nearly 80,000 Incan soldiers and with them the New World's most advanced civilization, essentially rolled over for the Spanish after Atahualpa's capture. They provided a sh!t-ton of gold in ransom for Atahualpa, which Pizarro happily accepted and then executed Atahualpa anyway. Most of the native Incans were either slaughtered through direct Spanish violence or killed off by diseases brought over by the Spaniards.]

Most of what I quoted was transcribed from Guns, Germas, and Steel, by Jared Diamond. Below are some other links re: the Battle of Cajamarca and the Spanish conquest of the Incans.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Battle-of-Cajamarca-1532

https://www.thoughtco.com/capture-of-inca-atahualpa-2136546

So yeah, that's why, despite the good things one could take from the "character" of Jesus as related in the Gospels, faith in the Truth and the power and favor of G-d and faith in the "good done" by spreading the faith by any means necessary, is among the greatest causes and justifications of pure evil that has occurred and recurred in the course of human history.

That's why it's all well and good for individuals to try to be Christ-like (or to follow the more positive or benign aspects of whatever faith to which they might subscribe), but in the grand scheme of things faith and religion can be and far too often is a horrible, horrible thing.

[Gregg]

ETA: Christianity that includes belief in Jesus as the son of God is especially troubling to me, because it shifts the need away from living a life devoted to being Christ like to one simply of being devoted to Christ as God. A person who lives every day as Jesus taught us to live in terms of how we treat each other, but does not accept Jesus as his only path to salvation, is damned. But a person who lives a cruel, horrible life, but converts and embraces Jesus as the son of God on his deathbed is saved.

Jesus becomes not a model to follow but a cheat code to get into heaven. All of our good deeds are worthless to God in the faith. The only path to salvation is submission to the idea that Jesus is God. To not believe that means eternal damnation, no matter how closely you follow his teachings. Belief in who is the gatekeeper to heaven, who holds the power, is more important than the actual lessons of how to live one's life. It's not what you know, it's who you know that matters. If Hitler truly converted and accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and savior right st the end, he goes to heaven. But if you lived a life of charity and love, but denied this fact, you don't get to join him. That is not a belief system that leads to ideal behavior by all. It would be much better to believe in his teachings about how to treat each other, and try to just live that way, each day.

First thank you for the thoughtful answer.

I would like to address "the cheat code" for a moment.

I used to have a problem with that because it is not fair. That is not just. We humans like our justice.

Would any of us believe in God/Jesus more if He would have preached all do good and you get in, all do bad and you don't. Hitler is the poster boy for this argument vs say us. What about people who do some good and some bad? Or what about people who have done something pretty bad and then lived the rest of their life doing really good things. Should they get in? Did I do some bad things? You bet. But they were not as bad as most bad people. Plus I did some good and nice things. Wouldn't it be more fair for God to grade on a curve with me getting in? Wouldn't that be just?

It was very offensive to me that Hitler "could" get into heaven for a death bed confession and I might have to go to hell because I could not or would not believe. Where is the justice in that? So why wouldn't I just make the choice to say I accept Jesus to get my fire insurance like that which is available to Hitler? Because just like you and every other atheist I knew that would not fool the god who doesn't exist. Even I knew that if God existed he would not fall for that.

It is a bad plan to rely on the possibility of a deathbed experience.

I also had a problem with the unfairness of the good deeds not making it in. In an atheistic world how many good deeds does it take to erase one bad one? I guess it would depend on the bad deed. Where is the cutoff. Is there anyone that you know that would claim to have never done anything wrong. Do atheists consciously do good deeds with the idea of making up for bad deeds?

It is not that God/Jesus does not like good deeds. He does. He just knows that the good deeds do not make up for the transgression.

[Gregg]

Because faith is too often used to justify seizing or holding onto power, over peoples, over individuals, etc, in harmful ways. The problem is not what Jesus (allegedly) taught in his years on the earth. It is what the assumption of his (or G-d's) divine favor or power (and those who purport to interpret or broker that favor or power) does to individuals and societies.

There is not much doubt that if something can be used for evil that it will be.

I am curious about something. Most people acknowledge that what Jesus (allegedly) taught is a good thing. If it wasn't Him, who did think of these teachings?