We're all bisexual

[Sour Masher]

Bringing in personalities for the example you have given is not fair to your question. What if it was a woman that looked like Mama June but was the nicest, kind, big hearted woman in the world?

Who would you choose if you were blind and could only choose by touching the sexual equipment?

I'm swayed by personality, so maybe you are right. I was trying to find examples at the extremes to show that there is at least some overlap in terms of attractive. A nice, super pretty, feminine looking man can be more appealing than a mean, horrible looking female.

[Gregg]

Going back to DMT's original post though, the starting question is whether a placement along a psycho-sexual continuum is hard-coded into our DNA. Whether a man would ever act on that, say, 2% proclivity for homosexual attraction, is dramatically impacted by our socialization. I do think that our society, unlike some other societies over the course of history, has socialized people (especially males) to push whatever sexual attraction may exist to another male deep down inside and deny it, even to one's self. My personal experience is that I had psycho-sexual reactions to people of both sexes from the onset of puberty until around 9th or 10th grade, after which the reactions to males essentially "went away" and I've only (consciously) been sexually attracted to females since. I'm sure that early recognition of bisexual "capacity" influences how readily I accept the continuum theory, however.

Do you believe it "went away" because you were socialized to push down to deny it?

I did not have the same experience as you did. I was attracted to girls/women very early. My first two crushes were my kindergarten teacher Mrs. Weber and a classmate named Robin. I did not know why, but I really liked wrestling with Robin. She did too so I don't have to worry about anything coming back to me.

About the same time I was introduced to Guy Williams Zorro and his rescue of Annette Funicello. I recognized him as the most handsome man I had ever seen. I wanted to be him not with him. I wanted to be him so I could be with Annette. I wanted to make her mine. My Mom made me a for real Zorro costume for Halloween. I was Zorro and spent many an hour rescuing my beloved Annette (played by my pillow).

[Gregg]

I'm swayed by personality, so maybe you are right. I was trying to find examples at the extremes to show that there is at least some overlap in terms of attractive. A nice, super pretty, feminine looking man can be more appealing than a mean, horrible looking female.

I get it. If you would have have just posted the faces of the two pictures and asked if I thought they were pretty, I would have to say yes. In fact one of them looks like a girl I went out with in college. Me saying that I think they are pretty is far different than being sexually attracted to them.

Could you find picture of a man that was not impersonating a woman that you would rather have sex with than the real Mama June? Wouldn't that be a fairer test?

[Sour Masher]

Yes, those photos are extreme and can reasonably be called "tricks" that trigger heterosexual attraction rather than homosexual attraction. I still think that given the right circumstance, e.g., boys' boarding school, prison, deep loneliness...most men could develop sexual attraction to a man.

I get that being attracted to the same sex as that gender presents in a culturally normative way is a separate issue than the examples I give, and I probably shouldn't be confusing/conflating them with my examples; however, I still think my examples are relevant to the larger point of the thread.

Calling these photos tricks belies the reality that much of what we categorize as masculine and feminine are also tricks, in that they are extenuated and shaped by cultural preferences. Different cultures push different ideals of male and female beauty, and almost all men and women must mold themselves to better fit those ideals. These male models are certainly accentuating their physical features in a way that I'd define as feminine, but they are doing it with less effort than many women do. That is, they are genetically already closer to the societal ideals of feminine beauty.

As one example, I find a lack of body hair on the face, underarms, back, chest, legs--basically everywhere except the pelvis region--as appealing. I find excessive body hair on a woman unappealing. Most woman do have some degree of body hair. Most men have more, of course, but some men have less body hair than some women. My point is that just as DMT's initial post suggest sexual preference exists on a continuum, I'm saying femininity and masculinity exist on a continuum as well.

I am attracted to women, but not to men, but there are quantifiable reasons for that. The things I find most appealing about women don't appear in all women--the hour glass figure, the lack of body hair, the long hair, the longer legs, the more delicate bone structure, etc. Some men embody those characteristics more than some women. If we concede that point, but also recognize that men who embody biological and cultural ideals of female beauty are still biologically men, isn't that, by definition, admitting sexual attraction is not biologically binary--that is 100% straight or 100% gay?

[Sour Masher]

I get it. If you would have have just posted the faces of the two pictures and asked if I thought they were pretty, I would have to say yes. In fact one of them looks like a girl I went out with in college. Me saying that I think they are pretty is far different than being sexually attracted to them.

Could you find picture of a man that was not impersonating a woman that you would rather have sex with than the real Mama June? Wouldn't that be a fairer test?

Yeah, they would be more appealing to me without their flat chests showing as well. But even with that, they are more appealing than Mama June to me.

I don't know if I could find a picture of a "masculine" man that I'd find sexually appealing at all. I think my attraction to a masculine man would fall into your description about Zorro--I'd want to be like them so I could be with the women they are able to be with.

I think if I took that pupil test, I'd be very low on the dilation scale, and also, I think that test may be flawed, because some of that could be attributed to the fact that the very idea of sex is appealing in that it is evocative of other sex, with people you find sexually attractive; your pupils may dilate not because you are attracted to the person having sex or masturbating, but because seeing those people engaging in sexual activity reminds you of sexual pleasure in general, which is always a little exciting. Your brain may just be saying, "hey, that dude is doing something that feels good; remember how that feels good?"

That said, if you read the post above this I just made, I argue that femininity and masculinity are different from male and female. If we can admit that some biological males fit our ideals of feminine beauty more than some biological females, and thus more appealing, aren't we admitting that we are not 100% biologically straight? My post above explains my question/argument better.

[hacko]

The continuum argument is an old one, and is supported by the fact that whole cultures have had different attitudes on same sex relations, and individual preferences seemed shaped by those societal norms.

When it comes to sexual preferences, I think it is really hard to not reference one's own preferences. Mine are probably as straight as they come. I absolutely love the female form, in most shapes and sizes. I am turned off by morbid obesity and extreme thinness. But I imagine that is very common and likely driven by biological factors. On the other hand, while I can appreciate when a man is attractive, I have no feelings of sexual attraction at all, excepting those cases where someone born man effectively mimics the appearance of a beautiful women. And even then, once the illusion is revealed, my attraction diminishes, even if I still appreciate the beauty.

All that said, I'd have to admit that I am not 100% straight, at least by my definition of straight. I say that, because I can picture/imagine a biological woman I find so sexually unattractive and a biological man I find so beautiful that if given the choice between the two to have sex with, I'd choose the super beautiful man over the supremely unattractive woman. By that standard, I strongly suspect almost all men are in the same boat with me, and probably all women are in that boat too.

If anyone here denies they'd make the same choice, and claims 100% preference for all women over all men, I am preemptively threatening to introduce pictures of both extremes to make you verify the veracity of your claim. There are a lot of Harvina Weinstein's out there folks. And a lot of men who naturally look both more feminine and more sexually appealing than those women. Likewise, I'm sure just about any woman would choose to have sex with a super hot gal over a guy that looks like Weinstein.

There is always a third choice- no sex at all.

I have always made the comments: that is 1 good looking guy but never thought / want or could ever do sex with a male. I even tell people now that I am single in my sixties - I would married the female version of my best friend in college. But can honestly say - no sexual appeal at all with men.

[cardboardbox]

There is always a third choice- no sex at all.

apparently we are the only ones who realize this.

[Sour Masher]

apparently we are the only ones who realize this.

Of course this is an option, and one I'd take IRL. This is the hypothetical game of would you rather. Apparently my male friend group in high school was the only one that played that.

[B-Fly]

Of course one can choose not to have sex. I thought we were talking about sexual attraction, however. I don't think we can choose who triggers a psycho-sexual reaction in us, or at least we can't do so nearly as easily as we can choose not to have sex. I personally, for example, find "anal" repulsive as either a giver or receiver, with either a male or a female. Just no. But I think there's a big difference between being turned on by thinking of or engaging in certain sexual acts, on the one hand, and being turned on by a quick and essentially involuntary psycho-sexual reaction to a visual stimulus on the other hand. When I hear "We're all bisexual", my analysis has gone more to the latter. But then again, if we're talking about actual sexual contact, I doubt most healthy men could completely suppress a physical-stimulus-based erection even if the person applying that stimulus was male.

[umjewman]

Of course one can choose not to have sex. I thought we were talking about sexual attraction, however. I don't think we can choose who triggers a psycho-sexual reaction in us, or at least we can't do so nearly as easily as we can choose not to have sex. I personally, for example, find "anal" repulsive as either a giver or receiver, with either a male or a female. Just no. But I think there's a big difference between being turned on by thinking of or engaging in certain sexual acts, on the one hand, and being turned on by a quick and essentially involuntary psycho-sexual reaction to a visual stimulus on the other hand. When I hear "We're all bisexual", my analysis has gone more to the latter. But then again, if we're talking about actual sexual contact, I doubt most healthy men could completely suppress a physical-stimulus-based erection even if the person applying that stimulus was male.

Things I have never wondered about in my entire life: B-Fly's position regarding "anal."

[Sour Masher]

But then again, if we're talking about actual sexual contact, I doubt most healthy men could completely suppress a physical-stimulus-based erection even if the person applying that stimulus was male.

Yeah, parasympathetic responses to soft touch stimulus is often involuntary. It is why rape victims can get aroused while being violated. It doesn't mean the act is desired by the mind, but the body sometimes responds on its own.

[baldgriff]

My wife tells me that I'm "just gay enough".

[Sour Masher]

My wife tells me that I'm "just gay enough".

Lol. What does she mean by that?

My wife is very turned off by any level of "gayness," which again, includes things that are totally culturally defined. She mocks me incessantly any time my enjoyment of musicals comes up--more musical episodes of shows I like than Broadway musicals. In fact, she has said the "gayest" thing about me is that I used to watch and really enjoy Buffy the Vampire Slayer and that my favorite episode of that show is their musical one.

[baldgriff]

Lol. What does she mean by that?

I like musicals... I like HGTV and the Food Network. I do the cooking in the home - and while I dont do the decorating, I have a pretty good eye for what she likes.

:turninginmancard:

[cardboardbox]

I like musicals... I like HGTV and the Food Network. I do the cooking in the home - and while I dont do the decorating, I have a pretty good eye for what she likes.

:turninginmancard:

:alreadybeenrevoked: