What to do about racism in the real world?

[heyelander]

Okay, but I think Teenwolf's thread doesn't need to be further derailed over this. Point made, but the question is what we think is the appropriate thing for a white person to do when someone (whether in the course of a business transaction or otherwise) thinks you're a safe audience with whom to express their racism. It's certainly something I've encountered many times and I will admit it has generally been hard for me to muster the courage to confront that in real time. I'm more likely to report it after the fact, and there are other times when I've just stored it away and made a mental note regarding the person/place of business.

I never know what to say because I get all confused and introspective at what vibe I was giving off that made this person feel safe to think I'd be like minded about it. I usually just correct the logic of the statement with out calling the person out.

[Teenwolf]

I just really like the "If I can't make fun of their weight or their looks, how else can I make them ashamed to be racist" argument.

My point was simply that I find it ironic that this guy is short, balding, buckteeth, thick glasses... and he's a f***ing white supremacist. It's just interesting to me that such a lacking physical specimen believes they are genetically superior to anybody. I wonder why the rest of the white race kept the gene from him that stops spittle forming at the corners of your mouth... (EDIT: tall, athletic, hair/eyes/teeth... this is the 'ideal' specimen... the washboard ab guy on Men's Fitness... attractiveness is pretty well understood in terms of 'the ideal'... this guy looked more like DJ Qualls. More sickly than 'master race'... sorry to all the sick looking people that might have been offended... maybe he's on methadone. I heard 20% of the city I live in is on methadone, which doesn't make sense to me, but I could see it with this racist guy... looks sickly like my drug addicted cousins. Not that there's anything inherently degrading about drug addicts either. Just saying it could explain his physicality.)

Also, I believe racists are some of the worst folks on earth. I also think that most racists aren't fully cognizant of their racial biases, so this guy's boasting elevates him into the upper echelon of scumbags within a group of scumbags.

It's nothing harsher than late night jokes about Steve Bannon looking like a bloated corpse... same thing. They say it because he's a vile racist, and they lower the bar for what a valid attack is when they're attacking garbage people like him. I guess I fell into that line of attack, but I don't find it so regrettable. If you declare yourself of a superior race you deserve a lot worse than anything I've said.

But I take your point. It's certainly disrespectful. I believe he's earned far worse than my words can deliver.

[Teenwolf]

I never know what to say because I get all confused and introspective at what vibe I was giving off that made this person feel safe to think I'd be like minded about it. I usually just correct the logic of the statement with out calling the person out.

The vibe you were giving off was "I doubt this person will publicly shame me for speaking up about my racism." They were right, and they went on with their day. Same situation as mine, I feel awful for not having a more forceful/shaming response.

I believe these people need to be publicly embarrassed for their displays of racism. Shame is a great motivator, as we've seen with the #MeToo movement. I'm so disappointed in myself to have reacted with such minor quibbling. I feel that I failed to stand up for my wife, as she feels the burden of this city's racism more heavily than I could. I hope I don't mess it up worse in trying to remedy my mistake. I appreciate that there's no perfect solution. But something more should be done so this guy is stopped from further harassment, and being led further down a dark path, personally.

[B-Fly]

The vibe you were giving off was "I doubt this person will publicly shame me for speaking up about my racism." They were right, and they went on with their day. Same situation as mine, I feel awful for not having a more forceful/shaming response.

I believe these people need to be publicly embarrassed for their displays of racism. Shame is a great motivator, as we've seen with the #MeToo movement. I'm so disappointed in myself to have reacted with such minor quibbling. I feel that I failed to stand up for my wife, as she feels the burden of this city's racism more heavily than I could. I hope I don't mess it up worse in trying to remedy my mistake. I appreciate that there's no perfect solution. But something more should be done so this guy is stopped from further harassment, and being led further down a dark path, personally.

I guess I'm not sure that confronting or shaming someone who is openly expressing racism and even "owning" the term "racist" in describing himself is going to keep him from being led further down a dark path. There's not much a white person can do on that through direct confrontation, beyond drawing a line in the sand that maybe makes the guy slightly more tentative about expressing his views to a white stranger (while still maintaining and acting in accordance with those view). (I think that much like with homophobia, the only truly effective way to draw a racist away from racism is through sustained and/or repeated positive personal exposures to/relationships with members of the "target" group.) The other thing you can do is "punish" the individual and/or his workplace by more broadly and publicly shaming, protesting, boycotting, and/or filing a formal complaint with the BBB or whatever other local organization tracks and publishes that sort of thing. And as I noted earlier, sometimes that latter course of action triggers backlash and further division within the community as people choose sides, accuse you of overreacting, etc.

[TranaGreg]

I recently took a course which had, amongst many other concepts, the idea that generally the response in such a situation shouldn't be based on anger or confrontation, but based on empathy. For example, if there are people there who are the targets of racist language, address them instead of the offender ... or if you want to address the offender do it from a place of improving understanding rather than shaming.

I know this sounds kind of snowflakish (many felt that it was avoiding the main issue), but in working through a few specific examples it did seem to be an interesting approach ... hey, the aggressive approach rarely gets any kind of traction anyway.

[Gregg]

My point was simply that I find it ironic that this guy is short, balding, buckteeth, thick glasses... and he's a f***ing white supremacist. It's just interesting to me that such a lacking physical specimen believes they are genetically superior to anybody. I wonder why the rest of the white race kept the gene from him that stops spittle forming at the corners of your mouth... (EDIT: tall, athletic, hair/eyes/teeth... this is the 'ideal' specimen... the washboard ab guy on Men's Fitness... attractiveness is pretty well understood in terms of 'the ideal'... this guy looked more like DJ Qualls. More sickly than 'master race'... sorry to all the sick looking people that might have been offended... maybe he's on methadone. I heard 20% of the city I live in is on methadone, which doesn't make sense to me, but I could see it with this racist guy... looks sickly like my drug addicted cousins. Not that there's anything inherently degrading about drug addicts either. Just saying it could explain his physicality.)

Also, I believe racists are some of the worst folks on earth. I also think that most racists aren't fully cognizant of their racial biases, so this guy's boasting elevates him into the upper echelon of scumbags within a group of scumbags.

It's nothing harsher than late night jokes about Steve Bannon looking like a bloated corpse... same thing. They say it because he's a vile racist, and they lower the bar for what a valid attack is when they're attacking garbage people like him. I guess I fell into that line of attack, but I don't find it so regrettable. If you declare yourself of a superior race you deserve a lot worse than anything I've said.

But I take your point. It's certainly disrespectful. I believe he's earned far worse than my words can deliver.

Death penalty?

[baldgriff]

And if we censor the words of this racist - you would never know or be able to decide if you want to visit that establishment again.

[B-Fly]

And if we censor the words of this racist - you would never know or be able to decide if you want to visit that establishment again.

Not sure anyone was talking about censoring him. Maybe censuring, which is very different.

[Teenwolf]

Death penalty?

Uh... you guys realize this piece of trash is habitually harassing Native customers, right? Not a funny joke, diminishing the harassment as you did.

I haven't seen anybody discuss the harassment issue itself. Does anybody think its innocent or minor? I think it's pretty extreme, but willing to hear alternate takes.

[Teenwolf]

And if we censor the words of this racist - you would never know or be able to decide if you want to visit that establishment again.

I dont know what this is getting at.

I'm not so much upset at his declaration that he's racist (although that is upsetting), it was upsetting to hear his story about how he harasses every Native customer.

[B-Fly]

Uh... you guys realize this piece of trash is habitually harassing Native customers, right? Not a funny joke, diminishing the harassment as you did.

I haven't seen anybody discuss the harassment issue itself. Does anybody think its innocent or minor? I think it's pretty extreme, but willing to hear alternate takes.

As you described it, I certainly view it as material and unacceptable harassment based on a protected classification, which is therefore presumably illegal/actionable under Canadian law, although I'm no Canadian law expert.

[Gregg]

Uh... you guys realize this piece of trash is habitually harassing Native customers, right? Not a funny joke, diminishing the harassment as you did.

I haven't seen anybody discuss the harassment issue itself. Does anybody think its innocent or minor? I think it's pretty extreme, but willing to hear alternate takes.

I was not laughing when I asked the question. I was not diminishing anything.

I would like you to answer my question.

[Fresno Bob]

I just really like the "If I can't make fun of their weight or their looks, how else can I make them ashamed to be racist" argument.

"teeth" would be traditional

[Teenwolf]

I was not laughing when I asked the question. I was not diminishing anything.

I would like you to answer my question.

No, I dont think his actions are worthy of the death penalty.

I brought up every possible recourse at my disposal. Death penalty or killing wasn't on my short list. What's your course of action in my shoes?

[Gregg]

No, I dont think his actions are worthy of the death penalty.

I brought up every possible recourse at my disposal. Death penalty or killing wasn't on my short list. What's your course of action in my shoes?

The death penalty would not be for this one event that you described. The death penalty would be for:

" I believe racists are some of the worst folks on earth. I also think that most racists aren't fully cognizant of their racial biases, so this guy's boasting elevates him into the upper echelon of scumbags within a group of scumbags".

Why would/should the worst folks on earth be allowed in society?