"Incels" - misogyny and violence - toxic masculinity - empathy

[B-Fly]

I initially thought about posting this in the Official Sexual Harrassment thread, but I think it's probably a different, if tangentially related topic. After the Toronto van attack, there's been a lot of talk about "Incels" and online misogyny that embraced anti-female rage and inspires or even celebrates anti-female violence. As a nearly all-male online community ourselves, it seems at least worth thinking and talking about. For starters, however, I want to link to a female perspective on "involuntary celibacy", self-loathing and loneliness, to lay down a baseline for thinking about all of this from a place of empathy rather than just hand-wringing about moral decay.

https://splinternews.com/unfuckable-women-dont-go-on-killing-sprees-1825746733

As is too often the case online, I think the title of the article I linked largely misses the spirit and intent of the article, but that is what it is. What, if anything, do you think we as a society, or we as individual men, can or should do either to help or guide people who may be suffering from feelings of personal and sexual rejection, worthlessness and self-loathing, or to at least minimize the opportunities for it to trigger hate and violence (especially against women)?

[[echo]]

to be honest.. i tuned out when i read "toxic masculinity"...
maybe i subscribe to a older-school of thought.. but ffs why is everyone a fucking professional victim?

im offended by the femme-nazi.. i need a cry closet, a safe space, and participation trophy.
..sorry.. not directed at you B.. just ranting.
nothing to see here - Move on - Move On...

[DMT]

but ffs why is everyone a fucking professional victim?
[/SIZE]

Because straight white males are assholes? No offense.

[B-Fly]

.. but ffs why is everyone a fucking professional victim?

I guess I can't tell from your post whether you're ffs'ing the "professional victim" positioning of the self-described male "incels" who rage and/or laugh about doing violence to women for their sin of denying them sex, whether you're ffs'ing the "professional victim" positioning of women who are either outraged or scared shitless by that level of violent misogyny, both, or neither.

[Sour Masher]

A lot of this is reactionary to the long overdue, good changes made in our society empowering women to have control over their bodies and lives. In a perverse way, it is a sign of the progress that has been made. For oppressed people, social changes like the ones that have gone on over the last century are painfully slow, but in the larger scheme of things, these changes have happened at a violently fast pace. So fast, and so unevenly, you have people who are part of the old of way thinking still around, still being born and raised. For those, taught of a time and way of life that gave them more power, more control, a privileged place in society that allowed them to get away with behavior that is increasingly being called out, they see the new order as stripping them of what is rightfully theirs. They see themselves as the victims, ironically, while they seek to victimize others.

All of that is true, but it is also true that the male sex drive and sense of self related to sexual activity is different from women's, and sometimes manifests in violent behavior (although, I want to believe that men like those making vile post like these are a very small minority). So, ignoring these facts, and not thinking of ways to deal with them, is foolish. So, how can we deal with them? Education? Efforts to untie the idea that to be a man is to be capable of sexual conquest, or you are less than, a loser, not a man, etc? That runs really deep in our cultural. It is going to take a lot and a long time to rid ourselves of that thinking, and some will go kicking and screaming talking about doing that is to feminize and neuter men. Porn doesn't help either, as a lot of it gets pretty extreme and potentially warps a lot of men's attitudes toward sex. It is interesting that as more and more rights are won by women in our society that our porn gets more and more extreme and violent toward women.

One short-term way of maybe mitigating these angers and frustrations might be legalizing and de-stigmatizing sex work. I know that is controversial and brings up a lot of issues about exploitation, which are real and legitimate. But a highly regulated, relatively safe sex work field where consenting adults choose to offer sex services could be a societal release valve for these tensions. It would be far safer for the women too, if it were legalized and legitimized, so they could seek legal recourse when attacked or mistreated.

[DMT]

Or, robots.

I generally agree with your opinions SM, but talking about radical fast-paced change gives too much sympathy to these fuckheads. Let's not kid ourselves that's what they are. How are the recent changes any more radical than decades past? Ending slavery, women's suffrage, civil rights movements all saw more radical changes in our society. I know you're not defending them but they don't deserve any sympathy either.

[Sour Masher]

Or, robots.

I generally agree with your opinions SM, but talking about radical fast-paced change gives too much sympathy to these fuckheads. Let's not kid ourselves that's what they are. How are the recent changes any more radical than decades past? Ending slavery, women's suffrage, civil rights movements all saw more radical changes in our society. I know you're not defending them but they don't deserve any sympathy either.

I purposefully worded my response vaguely, because I think it applies to lots of different things, including race, women's suffrage, LBGTQ--I mean all of that over the last century or so (that is a very long time judged by a lifetime, but not so long when judged by the lifetime of a culture). To be clear, I'm not trying to give them sympathy as much as understanding, so that we can fairly assess the threat/situation, and respond in a way that mitigates that threat.

Also, I know how privileged it sounds for me to suggest progressive changes have happened fast. Of course, for all those that continue to suffer from oppression, exploitation, and inequality, none of these things are happening nearly fast enough. All of these struggles still exist. I'm not suggesting they don't, or that we should stop fighting to move them along as fast as we can, or that we pat these poor MRAs on the head and feed their delusion that they are the "real" victims here. I'm merely suggesting that while all of these changes have been slow and hard fought for the oppressed, they are happening all too fast from the perspective of many white males. You still have fathers teaching their boys these things. Hell, you still have mothers teaching these things. You still have whole sub-cultures teaching this stuff as "traditional" values.

To me, some of the most vile vitriol you are seeing are the desperate rantings of cornered rats, but I think they still have a lot of fight in them, and I don't think they will be dispatched for awhile. I don't see it as being sympathetic in acknowledging that fact, looking at potential causes for it, and trying multiple strategies for dealing with it (education, cultural shifts in what it means to be a man, maybe some regulation on the most violent of porn, maybe legal, safe sex worker, etc). Sure, we can all just rightly denounce them as a hate group, no different from the KKK, white nationalists, and neo-nazis (no offense echo, but you using the MRA appropriated/perverted term femme-nazi is the height of irony given the stuff some of these guys say that B-Fly linked to--don't you think that stuff sounds more nazi-like?), but I don't think that solves the problems, at least not in the short term.

Edit: I used the term MRA, because as the article B-Fly links to points out, incels as a term was invented by a woman and meant to be inclusive of everyone society deems undesirable sexually. The movement to create a community for these people seems to me to have largely been taken over by MRAs that are largely professional victims, to borrow echo's term. While most female incels seem to blame themselves, many male incels seem to blame everyone else. These incels seem to be the problem, because they are the ones that get violent toward those they think are the problem.

[Bernie Brewer]

I don’t know much about this and can’t contribute much, but why does “everything” have to be a thing. Everybody is a victim of something these days or so it seems. When did we become. Culture of victim hood. I’m all about the #metoo movement. I’m good with gay rights and gender and racial equality movements. And, there are other important issues but is this really one? I guess if you suffer from loneliness it’s an issue but there ways to find people. Hating doesn’t seem to be it.

[Mithrandir]

I don’t know much about this and can’t contribute much, but why does “everything” have to be a thing. Everybody is a victim of something these days or so it seems. When did we become. Culture of victim hood. I’m all about the #metoo movement.

This. Quite a lot of people seem to suffer from mental illness of some sort. We, as a society, need to find better ways to handle those with mental illnesses. But i agree with Bernie that not everybody with an issue is a victim. And there will always be a percentage of people who act out violently for any number of reasons.

[Fresno Bob]

rape victims are victims of rape, and these incels that are calling for a "redistribution of fucking" are wantabe rapists.

All I can say is that if you rape anyone close to me, you are going to die, but only after being sodomized quite brutally, which I will video tape and post to every incel site I can find

[Sour Masher]

This. Quite a lot of people seem to suffer from mental illness of some sort. We, as a society, need to find better ways to handle those with mental illnesses. But i agree with Bernie that not everybody with an issue is a victim. And there will always be a percentage of people who act out violently for any number of reasons.

No, not everyone with issues is a victim, but people who blame their issues on others, who see themselves as victims, sometimes use these delusions to victimize others. Understanding their psychology is helpful. The alternative is reactionary. If the do harm, we bring the pain, but their the punishment does little to help the victims. I'm not suggesting to saying we shouldn't denounce hate and delusions, but we can do at while also trying to understand them---it is what FBI profilers do, after all.

I'm not saying we should be soft on any of these entitled dicks that get violent, although unlike Fresno Bib, I'm not sure rape is a fight fire with fire sort of crime. Especially in the case of male incels. Bob, you sure you could get it up to sodomize someone universally deemed unfuckable? Or maybe you were talking about using a proxy if some kind. Either way, rape seems to be the epitome of an eye for an eye being a bad idea. I'd probably skip that precursor and just get to the murder part of the vengeance. I'm a bit of a softy, I guess.

[Mithrandir]

rape victims are victims of rape, and these incels that are calling for a "redistribution of fucking" are wantabe rapists.

All I can say is that if you rape anyone close to me, you are going to die, but only after being sodomized quite brutally, which I will video tape and post to every incel site I can find

So you would go to prison and rob your family of being with them? I understand your vitriol, but you would sacrifice your life with your family?

[nullnor]

i still think of excuses why i cried at the end of thelma and louise in front of my GF and her feminist mother. they tried to warn me not to watch it with them.

can't say im a fan when you guys start thumping your chests about who is the bigger choir boy or has the biggest set of morals. except for fresno bob!

men start the wars. commit the shootings. whats it like 90% more men in prison for violent crimes than women? reminds me of some russian movie about stalingrad where these russian dudes under siege made it their mission to save a women that was with them, even tho we started the war. like now we need to find some redeemable quality.

the word of the day: dimorphism or sexual dimorphism.. it's the differences in the genders of a species. the greater the difference, the more successful or intelligent a species is. the idea is genders will have to work harder to understand each other. it places more social pressure on the species.

[nullnor]

as a species we abuse our bitches and put them thru hell. and then afterwards, suddenly we feel entitled to save them from ourselves; and that it will somehow redeem us. and then we wonder why they run away and don't want us to 'rescue' them.

this do-gooder shit is nauseating. you'd think you guys all majored in chick literature or something.

[Hornsby]

as a species we abuse our bitches and put them thru hell. and then afterwards, suddenly we feel entitled to save them from ourselves; and that it will somehow redeem us. and then we wonder why they run away and don't want us to 'rescue' them.

this do-gooder shit is nauseating. you'd think you guys all majored in chick literature or something.

This is brilliant nully. Brilliant.