NFL teams and the National Anthem...

[Sour Masher]

What are you arguing about again?

I am merely disagreeing with your statement that anyone can be president right now--I could see that sentiment being expressed when Obama got elected and reelected, but not now. I don't think this moment in our history is the appropriate time to marvel at that perception, given that our current president represents, to me at least, a massive step back for our country. Maybe he represents the last gasp of our country clinging to the old power structures, but it is clear to me he got elected largely as a way to combat the changes in our country that have given women and people of color more opportunity and equality. I hope that is the case that his election is a last defiant gasp on a dying worldview. But until he is ousted and someone who doesn't not champion bigotry and misogyny is elected by our nation, I am not comfortable saying that in our country, right now, anyone could get elected.

Shifting to the topic of the thread though, I have mixed feelings about anthem and flag protests. I can see both sides of it, and in general, I do think it ends up being a distraction from the real issues being protested, and allows opponents of equality and fairness to feel they are on morally superior ground by claiming they stand for patriotism, the troops, and first responders, when most protesters are also for those things.

[Redbirds Fan]

I am kind of disappointed that you did not comment on this as it really gets to the bottom of things concerning standing for the anthem (at least in my opinion and why I wrote it).


Rich powerful men have created the games we love so much. They are used to having their way. Players make sure your shenanigans do not overshadow your ability to make them money.
Remember when your physical skills decline and you cannot perform to what we the fans expect, we will want you traded, benched, or cut. We will not care what your views are.

Let me take a shot at this.

Rich powerful men have created the games we love so much. No, they didn't. They have taken over the game, made money from the game, and ruthlessly exploited the players. Over time, many players have been able to obtain enough leverage to bargain for compensation. But for many, life in the NFL is cold, brutish and short.

They are used to having their way. Yes, rich people get their way in this country. Dog bites man.

Players make sure your shenanigans do not overshadow your ability to make them money. That's the thing about political protests...they are not for people who aren't willing to risk something. And does anyone out there seriously believe these young men do not realize the very real risk that the white man will come down hard on them for this?

Remember when your physical skills decline and you cannot perform to what we the fans expect, we will want you traded, benched, or cut. This is just another day at the office for players in the NFL, who risk being traded, benched or cut every day.

We will not care what your views are. For me, and for the majority of people I talk to, the issue is not what their views are. The issue is their right to express these views without having the President of the freaking country call for them to be fired. This is government coercion in derogation of their Constitutional rights and should be repugnant to any American who cherishes our liberties and freedoms. Regardless of how we would sit, stand or kneel, we should support their right to choose. Whatever happened to the old "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it"? I suggest that such a sentiment is easy to embrace in the abstract, but harder to maintain in real life, especially when we are talking about brash young black men, some of whom make tons of money, who are seen as disrespecting the flag.

One of the things I have noticed among the critics of the NFL players has been the claim that the anthem protest is a direct attack on our military and even our first responders. They might as well say these players hate mom and apple pie while they are at it.

It is also telling that the people who complain most about "political correctness" seem to be the ones most triggered by this anthem protest.

[heyelander]

I just think it's sad that this is the argument... whether players are protesting appropriately, disrespecting the troops, have a constitutional right...

rather than, the police continue to be hyper-militarized and poorly trained and as such are killing people of color with little consequences.

The people in power have turned the statement into an anti-police one (I for one am strongly in favor of better trained and paid police) or an anti-american one. The mentally ill, kids with toys, people looking for their registration, people who are sick of being pulled over twice a week because of the color of their skin and are not in the mood to be obsequious about it today, are getting shot in the streets and no one is to blame but them... How can someone not try to draw some attention to it?

Instead we get this bullshit, we get cities and states passing laws where it is acceptable to run people over if they are in in the street, it's just a shame people can't find ways to protest that are easier for us to ignore so we aren't inconvenienced with their deaths.

[Gregg]

Thanks for the input gentlemen.

[Redbirds Fan]

Thanks for the input gentlemen.

You are welcome, but please bear in mind that the input (mine at least) was directed toward the issue raised and not toward you personally. You were just the person who tossed up some specific questions for serious consideration and discussion, something we need more of.

While I agree with heylander that the real issues are the ones which underlie the protests, I think it is important that we recognize how much Colin Kaepernick did to push public awareness and how important it is that we quickly swat down efforts such as those of the President to characterize this as a tantrum by spoiled athletes.

[Mithrandir]

This clown: http://www.observer-reporter.com/201...against_tomlin

Excerpt from the article: “I understand that I am a public servant and have been for 23 years. I said one thing wrong and now my world is turned upside down,” he wrote. “I did not break the law. That slur is used by many musicians with no recourse. Not trying to change the subject, but it is that I am being construed as a bad person.” What a moron.

I know that i shouldn't say this, but his appearance just reeks racist, to me.

[Gregg]

You are welcome, but please bear in mind that the input (mine at least) was directed toward the issue raised and not toward you personally. You were just the person who tossed up some specific questions for serious consideration and discussion, something we need more of.

While I agree with heylander that the real issues are the ones which underlie the protests, I think it is important that we recognize how much Colin Kaepernick did to push public awareness and how important it is that we quickly swat down efforts such as those of the President to characterize this as a tantrum by spoiled athletes.

I did not take it personally. I appreciate the dialog.

Sometimes it does get personal in here and I don't really care for that. It has caused some to leave and others not to participate as much. Just to be clear I haven't found that with you.

I sometimes feel a bit guilty that I am not more Patriotic. I am grateful to live in America. I also realize it is pretty messy and broken. The flag does not represent all that is wrong, broken, or bad. It represents hope and freedom. It is bigger than individuals. The anthem is a reminder of that hope.

Should we be allowed to protest, yes.

Is there a better way to affect true change? Yes, by implementing actions of love and service.

People are afraid and angry, maybe a little kindness would help.

[swampdragon]

This clown: http://www.observer-reporter.com/201...against_tomlin

Excerpt from the article: “I understand that I am a public servant and have been for 23 years. I said one thing wrong and now my world is turned upside down,” he wrote. “I did not break the law. That slur is used by many musicians with no recourse. Not trying to change the subject, but it is that I am being construed as a bad person.” What a moron.

I know that i shouldn't say this, but his appearance just reeks racist, to me.

yep bad person - everyone knows that is an awful term
but according to our president Trump said NFL owners should respond to the players by saying, "Get that son of a bitch off the field right now, he's fired. He's fired!"

[Redbirds Fan]

This clown: http://www.observer-reporter.com/201...against_tomlin

Excerpt from the article: “I understand that I am a public servant and have been for 23 years. I said one thing wrong and now my world is turned upside down,” he wrote. “I did not break the law. That slur is used by many musicians with no recourse. Not trying to change the subject, but it is that I am being construed as a bad person.” What a moron.

I know that i shouldn't say this, but his appearance just reeks racist, to me.

I will admit that I cannot be 100% sure this guy is a racist or a "bad person". I can say that he has poor judgment and impulse control, something I wouldn't want to see in someone who leads the local volunteer fire department.

[heyelander]

This clown: http://www.observer-reporter.com/201...against_tomlin

Excerpt from the article: “I understand that I am a public servant and have been for 23 years. I said one thing wrong and now my world is turned upside down,” he wrote. “I did not break the law. That slur is used by many musicians with no recourse. Not trying to change the subject, but it is that I am being construed as a bad person.” What a moron.

I know that i shouldn't say this, but his appearance just reeks racist, to me.

Are you a musician? No?

When you wrote "there, I said it" was that not an admission that you probably shouldn't be saying it?

[dslaw]

When an athlete says its not about the money, you know it is about the money.

When someone says “I have many friends of color and ethnicities,” , you know they are racist.

[nullnor]

i can't imagine what it's like being a police officer. i live in a good situation and the cops have been good to me. but i think citizens overall are crazy. it's probably hard to be the police. also, recently a lot of police in NY failed the psychological exam for the port authority job. and everyone has phones that can record video now. with everything being like it is nowadays i can see how we ended up here.

also, the world is electing women leaders a lot more. it makes sense too... at the risk of citing biology, they have less testosterone, bigger frontal lobes, bigger hippocampus and a smaller amygdala, so you would think biologically they would take less risks, be less corrupt, listen better, and be less knee-jerk reactionists. although the brain can work in funny ways and you can't say one area is the decider, it will use multiple areas at the same time or compensate.

i sill maintain the first female president will be tall, have a husky voice, and short hair. she'll be a moderate republican from a blue or purple state.

for me the reason HRC lost was because she essentially auditioned for the job when she became secretary of state. and that didn't really work out. i thought Libya was the right idea at the time, but it wasn't. and they say she was the deciding vote.

Trump got elected because like Bob said a while back about the problem with war elephants. but usually if you lean too far one way in the primaries you can win locally but not nationally. so we still have a good democracy. in order to win the so-called 51% strategy Trump had to be a lot more extreme than say HW or Bob Dole, or GW or McCain.

also, it's possible someday we will elect a president based solely on that person having played a president in a tv show. for example, GOT actors get hate mail based on the show. like ppl think it's real. the actor from ghostbusters that shut down the containment/protection grid said he got treated in real life by fans of the movie that way.. because of all the ghosts flying around in NY, not to mention the Stay Puft marshmallow man.

i mean technically we already elected an actor with Ronald Reagan. although that worked out. but in the movie Back to the Future when Doc was like no wonder you elected an actor with everyone having video recorders. if TV had an impact and gave an edge to Kennedy over Nixon, you wonder what kind of impact iphones will haven someday. but it does help the idea anybody could be president. i guess another question is, do you really want anybody to be president?

[Moonlight J]

[madducks]

Using the collective bargaining agreement, Colin Kaepernick has filed a collusion grievance against the NFL.
Kaepernick is pursuing his claim with his own legal team, but will have the assistance of the NFLPA. Profootballtalk reports Kap isn't just hoping to prove collusion in his case, but "trigger termination of the current Collective Bargaining Agreement" under a clause in the CBA (Article 69, Section 2). It's not debatable that teams have passed on Kaepernick for far worse players. The question is whether he can prove it was deliberate collusion on behalf of the owners.
(Source: Profootballtalk on NBCSports.com via Rotoworld)

[revo]

Using the collective bargaining agreement, Colin Kaepernick has filed a collusion grievance against the NFL.
Kaepernick is pursuing his claim with his own legal team, but will have the assistance of the NFLPA. Profootballtalk reports Kap isn't just hoping to prove collusion in his case, but "trigger termination of the current Collective Bargaining Agreement" under a clause in the CBA (Article 69, Section 2). It's not debatable that teams have passed on Kaepernick for far worse players. The question is whether he can prove it was deliberate collusion on behalf of the owners.
(Source: Profootballtalk on NBCSports.com via Rotoworld)

He has a great case, IMO.