2K23: Colorado Rockies

[Sour Masher]

Funny, I just read it. Powerful stuff. Good for him.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CCCp7aSptTr/

Yeah, thoughtful guy. He is right on all counts about the need for baseball to build the sport at the youth level, and for the importance of education and inclusion overall.

[Ken]

Funny, I just read it. Powerful stuff. Good for him.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CCCp7aSptTr/

wow thanks for posting this, great read, great person. I didn't know much about Desmond on a personal level but now I'm a big fan.

[madducks]

Funny, I just read it. Powerful stuff. Good for him.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CCCp7aSptTr/

I was agreeing with everything he said up until "The golden rules of baseball - don't have fun, don't pimp home runs, don't play with character. Those are white rules." Really?

[Ken]

I was agreeing with everything he said up until "The golden rules of baseball - don't have fun, don't pimp home runs, don't play with character. Those are white rules." Really?

You don't think so? You don't think the "don't show anyone up" culture of baseball vs the flashy/showy expressions in basketball and football aligns with the cultures of those who participate?

[madducks]

You don't think so? You don't think the "don't show anyone up" culture of baseball vs the flashy/showy expressions in basketball and football aligns with the cultures of those who participate?

I don't think of it as a cultural difference but as a generational thing. I think of baseball as having more "old school" unwritten rules that are slowly being changed by the younger generation to make it more appealing to the young fans. Baseball is a slower game so it will always be less flashy than the other sports.

[chancellor]

I don't think of it as a cultural difference but as a generational thing.

This. For sure. Sanders, Dickerson, Payton all behaved very differently after TDs than today's RB class. There weren't sack dances, either.

Plus, regardless of culture/race, you showed people up on the gridiron in the 60s/70s/80s, your opponents would come after you - you'd be targeted for blind side blocks, cut blocks, knee shots, you name it. You talked crap to Deacon Jones, for example, and he'd fake a hand injury, get a cast put on, and club the guy in the head. Since that's all now illegal, celebrations are a lot safer.

[Ken]

You guys really don't see the cultural associations there? I'm surprised.

[Ken]

Didn't know that it was a novel idea, but just for some context, here's a link to some discussion and a relevant set of quotes:

There are a number of verbal and non-verbal behaviors exhibited by football and basketball players, such as trash talking, taunting, celebrating, dancing, etc., that are penalized and heavily criticized by the athletic officials, coaches, the media and fans. The amount of attention these behaviors receive seems out of proportion to their importance, since they provide little if any competitive advantage and seem to be only peripherally related to the actual competition….These behaviors are a reflection of urban African American cultural norms, which conflict with white mainstream norms. The sanctions represent white male mainstream society’s response to the threat to white masculinity represented by black athletic superiority and by African American athletes’ assertion of the right to define the meaning of their own behavior. In this contested terrain, African Americans are resisting white male hegemony and asserting their manhood and cultural identity....so fundamental, pervasive, ingrained, invisible, and normal that [they are] not even aware of its existence…..[T]he invisibility of one’s own culture makes it difficult to recognize behavior that conflicts with one’s own cultural expectations as an expression of a different cultural pattern. Behaviors that differ are seen as abnormal and deviant….When African Americans behave according to the standards of their culture, they make whites feel uncomfortable….(Black athletes] pose a threat to white male control of sports….In response to this threat, they have made normal African American behavioral expression abnormal and deviant by penalizing these behaviors.

http://stevecotler.com/tales/2008/12/02/rule-book-racism-can-a-black-athlete-celebrate/

[revo]

This. For sure. Sanders, Dickerson, Payton all behaved very differently after TDs than today's RB class. There weren't sack dances, either.

Plus, regardless of culture/race, you showed people up on the gridiron in the 60s/70s/80s, your opponents would come after you - you'd be targeted for blind side blocks, cut blocks, knee shots, you name it. You talked crap to Deacon Jones, for example, and he'd fake a hand injury, get a cast put on, and club the guy in the head. Since that's all now illegal, celebrations are a lot safer.

Now hold on a second there pardner!!

All three were right in the heart of the showman era, although neither did it personally. Billy "White Shoes" Johnson did the funky chicken after every TD, and he started that around 1973-74. The Redskins "Fun Bunch" started the group thing around 1981. And Mark Gastineau started the whole sack dance craze in 1979.

[chancellor]

You guys really don't see the cultural associations there? I'm surprised.

No, in fact, I find it feeds into the racist tropes that African-American males can't control their emotions, are inherently more violent, and sing and dance at anything. Claiming that trash talking, for example, is somehow limited to or done more frequently by African-Americans is not only wrong, it sure seems like shaded racism to me. Taunting? LOL.

[chancellor]

Now hold on a second there pardner!!

All three were right in the heart of the showman era, although neither did it personally. Billy "White Shoes" Johnson did the funky chicken after every TD, and he started that around 1973-74. The Redskins "Fun Bunch" started the group thing around 1981. And Mark Gastineau started the whole sack dance craze in 1979.

And Jackie Slater went after Gastineau, starting what remains the biggest fight in NFL history (legend has it that Jets players were cheering for Slater to beat the crap out of Gastineau, too). Oakland DBs gave out bounties for which ones could lay the biggest hits on dancers like Elmo Wright, and White Shoes - and they seriously hurt Wright. Some Steelers players have admitted they looked for opportunities to "get" Hollywood Henderson.

So, yeah, there were people starting the whole celebration thing - but they were also targeted for retaliation, too. By players of all races.

[Ken]

No, in fact, I find it feeds into the racist tropes that African-American males can't control their emotions, are inherently more violent, and sing and dance at anything. Claiming that trash talking, for example, is somehow limited to or done more frequently by African-Americans is not only wrong, it sure seems like shaded racism to me. Taunting? LOL.

Weird, I like "trash talking" in my sports, and I like the celebrations. I prefer that version of sports where a players character can be shown rather than hushed because it's not white and tame enough. And I appreciated that there are in fact differences between cultures. Avoiding racism isn't saying we all have the same upbringing and culture, in fact the opposite, it's saying that we are equally valuable despite our differences and appreciating and loving those differences. I'm not sure how you have confused the two.

LOL right back at you I guess?

[Ken]

It's funny though how much this type conversation mimics similar conversations that are going on.

We are sitting here debating whether something exists, whether the concept of celebration in sports being a negative trait is a "white" rule.

Meanwhile we have a guy who has lived it, and who eloquently wrote about it. Is there a reason why we want brush it under the rug? Does it make us uncomfortable?

How about we listen to the guy who actually experienced it and consider that maybe, just maybe, he knows a hell of a lot more about it than any of us?

[chancellor]

Weird, I like "trash talking" in my sports, and I like the celebrations. I prefer that version of sports where a players character can be shown rather than hushed because it's not white and tame enough. And I appreciated that there are in fact differences between cultures. Avoiding racism isn't saying we all have the same upbringing and culture, in fact the opposite, it's saying that we are equally valuable despite our differences and appreciating and loving those differences. I'm not sure how you have confused the two.

LOL right back at you I guess?

I haven't confused them, you have. My point is it's far more of a generational difference than a racial one. You think white guys in basketball don't trash talk and taunt? That non-black baseball players don't pose and show emotion? Historically, baseball has had plenty of trash talk and taunting - even before the unfortunate stain of black players being prevented from playing was in place.

The concept of showing people up - and what retaliation was deemed acceptable for that action - has definitely generationally changed. As I noted with accurate historical information, Jackie Slater - who is black - certainly didn't appreciate Mark Gastineau - who is white - showing him up. The Oakland DBs - who were black - ruthlessly headhunted WRs who showed them up. The stuff Deacon Jones did is pretty well documented. Bob Gibson's ruthlessness is well-documented. I could go on with dozens of other accurate historical events that supports this. Point being, being pissed about getting shown up isn't a race construct. The difference is generational - earlier generations found it perfectly acceptable for an athlete to retaliate when shown up, now it's acceptable and "part of the game", and significant penalties exist for retaliation.

[Ken]

I haven't confused them, you have. My point is it's far more of a generational difference than a racial one. You think white guys in basketball don't trash talk and taunt? That non-black baseball players don't pose and show emotion? Historically, baseball has had plenty of trash talk and taunting - even before the unfortunate stain of black players being prevented from playing was in place.

The concept of showing people up - and what retaliation was deemed acceptable for that action - has definitely generationally changed. As I noted with accurate historical information, Jackie Slater - who is black - certainly didn't appreciate Mark Gastineau - who is white - showing him up. The Oakland DBs - who were black - ruthlessly headhunted WRs who showed them up. The stuff Deacon Jones did is pretty well documented. Bob Gibson's ruthlessness is well-documented. I could go on with dozens of other accurate historical events that supports this. Point being, being pissed about getting shown up isn't a race construct. The difference is generational - earlier generations found it perfectly acceptable for an athlete to retaliate when shown up, now it's acceptable and "part of the game", and significant penalties exist for retaliation.

Good lord. This is insane.

Forget I ever brought it up. You aren't getting it.

Just add "all lives matter" to the end of your post while you are at it and we'll move on.