President Donald Trump

[chancellor]

To chance's points, any speech restrictions don't impact 99.9% of people on a typical day, the capacity to restrict travel exists everywhere - and yes, I'd suggest that the restrictions on bearing arms in most countries results in greater freedoms for the vast majority of citizens.

I'll differ with you on the speech restrictions - they end up impacting everyone, every day by changing how people communicate. In the UK, for example, it's become pernicious to the point of allowing this to happen:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-50333707

It's been pretty well-established that many turned a blind eye. In addition, many didn't want to turn a blind eye, but feared the impact of saying anything since they'd be dubbed "racist" and "anti-muslim", with resultant damage to career and life. So no one said anything, even though this was happening in almost plain sight.

I'll differ on the travel restrictions, also. You may have the same protections in Canada, but the EU/UK do not have constitutional protections on interstate/interprovince travel the way the US does.

[Sour Masher]

Thank you Chance.

I forget the need to define terms in some of these discussions.

Yeah, esp with abstract concepts like freedom. I mean, if you go by the Index of Freedom in the World before it and now the Human Freedom Index (and if you trust the metrics they used/use), the US ranks 15th:

The Index of Freedom in the World is an index of civil liberties published in late 2012 by Canada's Fraser Institute, Germany's Liberales Institut, and the U.S. Cato Institute.[1] The index is the predecessor of the Human Freedom Index, which has been published annually since 2015. The coauthors of both indexes are Ian Vásquez and Tanja Porčnik (née Štumberger).

The index is based on measures of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, individual economic choice, freedom of association, freedom of assembly, violence and crimes, freedom of movement, and women's rights. Other components of the Freedom Index include human trafficking, sexual violence, female genital mutilation, and homicide.[2]

The index rates countries on a scale from 10 (freest) to 0 (least free). In 2019, the freest countries/regions were New Zealand (8.88), Switzerland (8.82), and Hong Kong SAR, (8.81). Least free were Syria (3.79), Venezuela (3.80), and Yemen (4.30).[3] The components on which the index is based can be divided into economic freedoms and other personal freedoms. Highest ranking in economic freedoms were Hong Kong (8.91) and Singapore (8.71). Highest ranking in personal freedoms were Sweden (9.45) and the Netherlands (9.28).[3] In 2019, United States has dropped to rank 15 according to The Human Freedom Index.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_...al%20freedoms.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Yeah, esp with abstract concepts like freedom. I mean, if you go by the Idnex of Freedom in the World (and if you trust the metrics it uses), the US ranks 15th:

The Index of Freedom in the World is an index of civil liberties published in late 2012 by Canada's Fraser Institute, Germany's Liberales Institut, and the U.S. Cato Institute.[1] The index is the predecessor of the Human Freedom Index, which has been published annually since 2015. The coauthors of both indexes are Ian Vásquez and Tanja Porčnik (née Štumberger).

The index is based on measures of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, individual economic choice, freedom of association, freedom of assembly, violence and crimes, freedom of movement, and women's rights. Other components of the Freedom Index include human trafficking, sexual violence, female genital mutilation, and homicide.[2]

The index rates countries on a scale from 10 (freest) to 0 (least free). In 2019, the freest countries/regions were New Zealand (8.88), Switzerland (8.82), and Hong Kong SAR, (8.81). Least free were Syria (3.79), Venezuela (3.80), and Yemen (4.30).[3] The components on which the index is based can be divided into economic freedoms and other personal freedoms. Highest ranking in economic freedoms were Hong Kong (8.91) and Singapore (8.71). Highest ranking in personal freedoms were Sweden (9.45) and the Netherlands (9.28).[3] In 2019, United States has dropped to rank 15 according to The Human Freedom Index.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_...al%20freedoms.

This reminds me of the opening scene in the first episode of Newsroom.

What makes America the Greatest Country in the World?

It's Not.

[TranaGreg]

This reminds me of the opening scene in the first episode of Newsroom.

What makes America the Greatest Country in the World?

It's Not.

But it could be.

That was an amazing 10 minutes.

[GwynnInTheHall]

But it could be.

That was an amazing 10 minutes.

One of my favorite moments in TV.

[TranaGreg]

I'll differ with you on the speech restrictions - they end up impacting everyone, every day by changing how people communicate. In the UK, for example, it's become pernicious to the point of allowing this to happen:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-50333707

It's been pretty well-established that many turned a blind eye. In addition, many didn't want to turn a blind eye, but feared the impact of saying anything since they'd be dubbed "racist" and "anti-muslim", with resultant damage to career and life. So no one said anything, even though this was happening in almost plain sight.

I'll differ on the travel restrictions, also. You may have the same protections in Canada, but the EU/UK do not have constitutional protections on interstate/interprovince travel the way the US does.

hmmm, ... my first thought is that is more of a cultural shift than anything related to freedoms or rights ... but I do see how they can be connected ...

but using that same argument, the culture of inter-country travel throughout Europe is pretty pervasive (ie weekend jaunts to Prague) ...

nonetheless, I'll maintain that the day-to-day impacts on freedoms are relatively negligible.

[Sour Masher]

One thing that interests me is the opinion of those of you who lean to the right is the civil forfeiture that happens in the country. How do you feel about it? Sure, ideally, it is taking drug money from drug dealers, but that is not always the way it goes down, and there isn't a lot of oversight of it. Private property rights mean a lot to people in this country, but this issue doesn't get a lot of attention, it seems. Is the thought on the right that this state privileged is abused or could be abused #fakenews? It was addressed by the SC recently, to an extent, but abuses still happen:

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...ped-ncna974086

[chancellor]

Libertarians like me have opposed forfeiture in either all cases, or only in very narrow cases after a conviction is made.

Nice to see those on the left caught up with us.

[Sour Masher]

Libertarians like me have opposed forfeiture in either all cases, or only in very narrow cases after a conviction is made.

Nice to see those on the left caught up with us.

Actually, I've felt uncomfortable about the procedures about this for years. Was glad to see it addressed to an extent. But it is a weird combo on the right to me. Law and Order folks who are uncomfortable questioning CF and police state powers in general combined with libertarian ideals of freedom and the sacredness of personal property.

[Hornsby]

But it could be.

That was an amazing 10 minutes.

For those few people who may have missed it...

https://youtu.be/zEyUWKJFER8

[Gregg]

Trump is on his way to Kenosha right now.

My friend just called and said they are shutting everything down for two hours. She was trying to get gas and the station is shut down.

[Steve 2.0]

Trump is on his way to Kenosha right now.

My friend just called and said they are shutting everything down for two hours. She was trying to get gas and the station is shut down.

After the mayor and the governor asked him not to come. This man is without a doubt the biggest narcissist on the planet right now. I have other thoughts on him as well....but I'll leave it there for now.

[GwynnInTheHall]

After the mayor and the governor asked him not to come. This man is without a doubt the biggest narcissist on the planet right now. I have other thoughts on him as well....but I'll leave it there for now.

And didn't even mention Jacob Blake but does double down on telling cops to--do what must be done--and then donating 1 million to their cause.- I can't wait until his ass is dodging lawsuits and indictments or bullets--any of those would do for me.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Wow.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/09/trump-americans-who-died-at-war-are-losers-and-suckers/615997/

When President Donald Trump canceled a visit to the Aisne-Marne American Cemetery near Paris in 2018, he blamed rain for the last-minute decision, saying that “the helicopter couldn’t fly” and that the Secret Service wouldn’t drive him there. Neither claim was true.

Trump rejected the idea of the visit because he feared his hair would become disheveled in the rain, and because he did not believe it important to honor American war dead, according to four people with firsthand knowledge of the discussion that day. In a conversation with senior staff members on the morning of the scheduled visit, Trump said, “Why should I go to that cemetery? It’s filled with losers.” In a separate conversation on the same trip, Trump referred to the more than 1,800 marines who lost their lives at Belleau Wood as “suckers” for getting killed.

On Memorial Day 2017, Trump visited Arlington National Cemetery, a short drive from the White House. He was accompanied on this visit by John Kelly, who was then the secretary of homeland security, and who would, a short time later, be named the White House chief of staff. The two men were set to visit Section 60, the 14-acre area of the cemetery that is the burial ground for those killed in America’s most recent wars. Kelly’s son Robert is buried in Section 60. A first lieutenant in the Marine Corps, Robert Kelly was killed in 2010 in Afghanistan. He was 29. Trump was meant, on this visit, to join John Kelly in paying respects at his son’s grave, and to comfort the families of other fallen service members. But according to sources with knowledge of this visit, Trump, while standing by Robert Kelly’s grave, turned directly to his father and said, “I don’t get it. What was in it for them?” Kelly (who declined to comment for this story) initially believed, people close to him said, that Trump was making a ham-handed reference to the selflessness of America’s all-volunteer force. But later he came to realize that Trump simply does not understand non-transactional life choices.

“He can’t fathom the idea of doing something for someone other than himself,” one of Kelly’s friends, a retired four-star general, told me. “He just thinks that anyone who does anything when there’s no direct personal gain to be had is a sucker. There’s no money in serving the nation.” Kelly’s friend went on to say, “Trump can’t imagine anyone else’s pain. That’s why he would say this to the father of a fallen marine on Memorial Day in the cemetery where he’s buried.”

I predict that the Republican Party will choose to side with Donald Trump on this, and American war dead, wounded, and captured will be thrown under the bus to that end, just like the GOP does with everyone else. He already did it with John McCain, so I would expect the same reaction here - a few mild and isolated protests.

[revo]

Wow.

I predict that the Republican Party will choose to side with Donald Trump on this, and American war dead, wounded, and captured will be thrown under the bus to that end, just like the GOP does with everyone else. He already did it with John McCain, so I would expect the same reaction here - a few mild and isolated protests.

A couple of months ago I saw a car with two bumper stickers. One was a 'Trump '20' sticker, the other said 'Vietnam Veteran.' The irony is amazing. If this was 50 years ago, I'm sure this same guy would have put a bullet in the draft dodging Trump's back, but now not only does he vote for him, he avidly supports him. The right amazes me with their pretzel logic.