President Donald Trump

[revo]

is there something about old men in a wheelchair being so randy they grab their nurses buttocks? viagra seems like silly invention. they need to make more anti-viagra.

I mean, Benny Hill did this routine throughout the 1970s!


I'm sorry, just trying to make light of the situation. I'll carry on.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Ks, would it matter if it was grazing or cupping. Did the described squeeze with bad pun as picture being taken go from simply creepy to more menacing with tints of sexual assault by virtue of being a squeeze? Look, it was wrong, creepy, even disgusting. But it to me is about a 1 on a scale of 1 to 1000, and not in the felony camp, with the Cosby systematic drugging and rapes being stuff someone gets put away for for decades. Just my opinion.

It's inappropriate. It sounds to me like the kind of thing that would get a man (who wasn't POTUS) slapped and scolded. I don't think it's harmless. I don't think it's a joke. It's rude; it's offensive; he shouldn't have done it. If this is a regular routine with him like it sounds like it is, then he should be ashamed of himself. That's not an appropriate way to treat people. But no I don't think it's criminal, if that's what you are asking.

I don't think something should have to be criminal before women can be allowed to complain about it or society can be allowed to shame such behavior.

I said above that I didn't think it was nearly as serious as what some other people (Cosby, etc.) have done. What I was reacting to was Lucky saying that the women shouldn't have spoken up about it at all.

[nullnor]

alright to be serious here, last week a young woman was caught on camera stumbling thru the streets of London after being possibly drugged or drunk and separated from her friends and trying to get home. and they said she was sexually assaulted 3 different times by 3 different men. cameras everywhere mostly before and after. like in the movie Ms .45. not that i've ever seen that movie.

it's an epidemic. the only reason you don't realize it is because your not an assaulter. neither am i, but im just say'n.

[nullnor]

president leads by example. or an ex-president. not that citizens are going to go around saying they are going to sexually assault someone because the president does it. but they might be a white supremacist in Oregon and feel embolden and knife 3 ppl on a train. or run over someone in a crowd during a free speech rally. i don't know. but it's not good.

edit: btw, there's only a few very rare circumstances where a woman can sexually assault a man.

[Hornsby]

A big part of the Issue is the age of Bush 1...something happens to some men, and maybe he's one of them, where the barriers come down.

My father was a gentleman all his life, devoted to my mother and always treated women with the ultimate respect. Sadly, he had a series of strokes, and my mother passed away...he was placed into a nursing home. He was fine for a few months, and then I started to get complaints from the staff, he'd become a serial groper. I had talks with him, and I'm fairly certain that he no longer had a clue that what he was doing was inappropriate. All of the women there knew how to deal with it, because it was a common occurrence with many of the men in the home.

So while I'm certainly not excusing 41's behavior, I'm also not at all certain that he has a total control of his actions at all times.

[TranaGreg]

A big part of the Issue is the age of Bush 1...something happens to some men, and maybe he's one of them, where the barriers come down.

My father was a gentleman all his life, devoted to my mother and always treated women with the ultimate respect. Sadly, he had a series of strokes, and my mother passed away...he was placed into a nursing home. He was fine for a few months, and then I started to get complaints from the staff, he'd become a serial groper. I had talks with him, and I'm fairly certain that he no longer had a clue that what he was doing was inappropriate. All of the women there knew how to deal with it, because it was a common occurrence with many of the men in the home.

So while I'm certainly not excusing 41's behavior, I'm also not at all certain that he has a total control of his actions at all times.

I have a similar experience, tho mine was due to my dad's Alzheimer's; once my mother & I took him for lunch - when the waitress came to take our orders he leaned over to me & said (not so quietly) "hey, you should see if she has a girlfriend for you!" ... of course my mother was mortified, but it was truly hysterical.

[Kevin Seitzer]

A big part of the Issue is the age of Bush 1...something happens to some men, and maybe he's one of them, where the barriers come down.

My father was a gentleman all his life, devoted to my mother and always treated women with the ultimate respect. Sadly, he had a series of strokes, and my mother passed away...he was placed into a nursing home. He was fine for a few months, and then I started to get complaints from the staff, he'd become a serial groper. I had talks with him, and I'm fairly certain that he no longer had a clue that what he was doing was inappropriate. All of the women there knew how to deal with it, because it was a common occurrence with many of the men in the home.

So while I'm certainly not excusing 41's behavior, I'm also not at all certain that he has a total control of his actions at all times.

Yeah, if that's the case, it's a different matter.

[Redbirds Fan]

It's inappropriate. It sounds to me like the kind of thing that would get a man (who wasn't POTUS) slapped and scolded. I don't think it's harmless. I don't think it's a joke. It's rude; it's offensive; he shouldn't have done it. If this is a regular routine with him like it sounds like it is, then he should be ashamed of himself. That's not an appropriate way to treat people. But no I don't think it's criminal, if that's what you are asking.

I don't think something should have to be criminal before women can be allowed to complain about it or society can be allowed to shame such behavior.

I said above that I didn't think it was nearly as serious as what some other people (Cosby, etc.) have done. What I was reacting to was Lucky saying that the women shouldn't have spoken up about it at all.

Wait a minute there, bucko. Again, I'm talking about one particular case here. And my problem with this particular publicity hound is that she laid behind the log for four years for no good reason and then decided she needed to give her career a notoriety boost. She should have slapped him or scolded him at the time. You pointed out in your post that such a response would be appropriate for such rude and offensive conduct.

But is should have been done at the time. Unlike the other cases we have discussed, there was no reason for the victim to delay responding.

He held no position of power or authority over her. He was not her boss. He was not a producer or director who could help or hurt her career. He held no secrets with which to blackmail her. He neither used nor threatened physical or psychological force or violence. There quite simply was no reason to fear him.

She was not inexperienced young girl, nor was she an idiot. She was a 30-year old actress with a B.A. from Fordham.

I would have had no problem at all if she had socked the old man in the jaw right then and there. But the way she did this...scheduling her display of outrage so that it would maximize her media exposure while causing Bush 41 to be lumped in with Weinstein, et al...is chickensh*t in my opinion.

Again, I'm talking just about this particular case. Just because a victim doesn't complain at the time doesn't mean she doesn't have a valid case. But we can look at these matters one at a time. We don't have to take the side of every complaining party, especially when they lack clean hands.

[Hornsby]

Three media outlets confirm that the 1st charges brought forward by the Mueller investigation have been filed...stay tuned.

[heyelander]

Three media outlets confirm that the 1st charges brought forward by the Mueller investigation have been filed...stay tuned.

What do you think Hillary did now?

[Hornsby]

What do you think Hillary did now?

I'm guessing smuggling raw plutonium to the lost continent of Atlantis...either that or running a mutant trafficking ring out of a Pizza place.

[mjl]

Wait a minute there, bucko. Again, I'm talking about one particular case here. And my problem with this particular publicity hound is that she laid behind the log for four years for no good reason and then decided she needed to give her career a notoriety boost. She should have slapped him or scolded him at the time. You pointed out in your post that such a response would be appropriate for such rude and offensive conduct.

But is should have been done at the time. Unlike the other cases we have discussed, there was no reason for the victim to delay responding.

He held no position of power or authority over her. He was not her boss. He was not a producer or director who could help or hurt her career. He held no secrets with which to blackmail her. He neither used nor threatened physical or psychological force or violence. There quite simply was no reason to fear him.

She was not inexperienced young girl, nor was she an idiot. She was a 30-year old actress with a B.A. from Fordham.

I would have had no problem at all if she had socked the old man in the jaw right then and there. But the way she did this...scheduling her display of outrage so that it would maximize her media exposure while causing Bush 41 to be lumped in with Weinstein, et al...is chickensh*t in my opinion.

I admit I haven't been following the discussion here and didn't read scrollback as far as I could have, so it's possible there's more context that I'm missing. Are you actually suggesting that a rational response on her part to getting her ass grabbed would have been to punch the 88-year-old wheelchair-bound former President of the United States in the jaw? Or to respond with force in any manner? I will grant that it's true that he didn't have any direct control over her career other than perhaps to make her famous as the woman who cold-cocked a President for something that at the time was basically considered a total nothing event, which might have given her some kind of reputation as maybe difficult to work with or a little unhinged.

Have you seen the number of women coming forward now about everyone in a position of power who's done this? Actresses, Congresswomen, business executives, random women, etc.? And you think she held it until now to get some notoriety instead of this being for whatever reason the first time in as long as I can remember that it's socially acceptable to talk about these behaviors?

[nullnor]

have you guys seen what happens to victims on social media these days. there's no way she could've made an issue of it at the time unless there was backup. and even then every conspiracy theorist would've gone after her. look at the victims of the countryfest shooting. they are all calling them liars, like it never happened, like sandyhook. so much that they have to take down their social media pages. it's pretty bad out there.

and really it was the republican politicians that fueled the conspiracy types with their, don't trust government thing. alex joneses and bannons and limbaugh's. they fed the monster. and now it's out of control.

[Redbirds Fan]

I admit I haven't been following the discussion here and didn't read scrollback as far as I could have, so it's possible there's more context that I'm missing. Are you actually suggesting that a rational response on her part to getting her ass grabbed would have been to punch the 88-year-old wheelchair-bound former President of the United States in the jaw? Or to respond with force in any manner? I will grant that it's true that he didn't have any direct control over her career other than perhaps to make her famous as the woman who cold-cocked a President for something that at the time was basically considered a total nothing event, which might have given her some kind of reputation as maybe difficult to work with or a little unhinged.

Have you seen the number of women coming forward now about everyone in a position of power who's done this? Actresses, Congresswomen, business executives, random women, etc.? And you think she held it until now to get some notoriety instead of this being for whatever reason the first time in as long as I can remember that it's socially acceptable to talk about these behaviors?

You should read the scrollback as well as the original pronouncements from this actress, because you have missed my point entirely.

I believe the women who have come forward in the Weinstein case were victims of serious offenses, as were the women in the Crosby case and the various other cases which have gained much-needed attention lately. Unlike many other crime victims, they did not report these crimes immediately, but they had very good reasons. The men who perpetrated these crimes had power over them. These men had control over their careers or some other aspects of their lives. These women had justifiable fear of the mean who had harmed them, fear they would be harmed further if they stood up for themselves.

Only years later did they come forward. Different circumstances freed them to do so. In many cases, women have said that the Trump "grab them by the pu**ies" tape was a motivating force. For others, seeing Ailes, O'Reilly and Weinstein taken down the comfort zone they needed to finally speak. Whatever it took, they have a right to say now what happened to them. I have no issue with that. They men who hurt them, and then essentially covered up their crimes through intimidation of their victims, deserve what they get.

Was this case similar or different? The woman said in her announcement that the former President "sexually assaulted" her, but did not say what he did, which was to grab her butt.* She said that he also told her a "dirty joke" as if the two acts were not a part of the same silly act.** She said she was triggered into bringing this all up by a photo she saw of Bush41 shaking hands with Obama, and that this disturbed her.***

I believe she had every right to come forward and complain about this now. But I do not put her in the category of all of these victims who had real reasons for not coming forward at the time. Those women suffered in silence to avoid being hurt further or having their career ruined. I believe this woman didn't say anything because it wasn't a huge deal for her at the time, but became a huge deal when the opportunity for media exposure peaked. I'm saying that I don't feel about her story in the way I feel about the stories of the other victims. I doubt her sincerity based upon her words and her deeds.

And yes, I think that it would have been more appropriate for her to have scolded him at the time. It was 2014 for crying out loud, not 1960. She was a 30-year old college graduate.

It may turn out that Bush was a serial butt-grabber or worse. That won't change the facts in this particular case.

*She said he touched her from behind. Because she was vague, and used the term sexual assault, it left some to wonder whether this meant that he grabbed her butt, touched her anus or even grabbed her pu**y. I think she knew that if she said up front that he only grabbed her butt it would not have had as much impact as her saying vaguely that he "sexually assaulted" her.

**Is the David Cop-a-feel really a "dirty joke"? Maybe. It is certainly part of the butt-grab schtick. Knowing the whole story also explains the apology, which originally made no sense, saying the President was sorry for his attempt at humor. I would have felt more comfortable about her sincerity and honesty if she hadn't have presented it as she did, which gave the impression of a dirty old man telling her a salacious story. (When my wife found out the 'dirty joke' was the David Copperfield deal, for example, she said "Now I understand what was going on.")

***I guess she had to have some excuse for stepping forward now. I feel sure she didn't want to compare her case to the more dramatic victims of Weinstein, et al. But to say that she was triggered by a photo of Bush41? How many photos have there been of Bush/Obama, Bush/Clinton, Bush/Carter, Bush/Bush, Bush/Hillary, etc. over the last four years?

[onejayhawk]

The problem was not just Weinstein, but a culture that would blacklist any complainer.

J