CIA Reports To Torture or Not.

[GwynnInTheHall]

That is not a question. That is a statement with a "?" at the end. It is also an incorrect statement.


J

Ahh Jay, It has been so long that I forgot you are not very adept at the Art of Conversation. Many things in a dialogue must be taken in the full context of the conversation rather than one line at a time, which is all you seem to do. Things like sarcasm, innuendo, and of course..Humor seem to slip right by you. But hey that's cool, the world is full of people who are better at one thing or another than we are.

Let's get back to the topic at hand.

Do you think torture is EVER justified?

[DMT]

Yeah but they're not the same thing, they're not even close to the same thing. You can't you conflate the everyday desire to protect your kids with the fundamental principles of liberal democracy. Our society is based on principles that are specifically designed to counter and rise above base desires and passion. Constitutions, Rights Charters, the Justice system are in place specifically for this reason. If we surrender those, as we have done, and continue to do, we cannot claim to live in a free democratic society.

Projecting from our own experiences of day-to-day life to the general qualities that have to govern societies is not a valid comparison. That is why civil rights and human rights charters have to rise above this. Saying, I love my family more than X or Y and I'll do anything to protect them, and because of that it's OK for society to treat other society's in a similar manner is anti-everything that makes out society free and democratic. It's a conflation that reminds me a lot of 19th century Social Darwinism.

I agree with this so I'm not sure why you're responding as if I am in disagreement. I explicitly stated that one's personal valuations of life should not be used to create social policy. However, to pretend that individuals don't value some lives more than others, or that they're wrong in doing so, is absurd.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I agree with this so I'm not sure why you're responding as if I am in disagreement. I explicitly stated that one's personal valuations of life should not be used to create social policy. However, to pretend that individuals don't value some lives more than others, or that they're wrong in doing so, is absurd.

It's not absurd if you're striving toward the utopian society where all lives matter equally.

And I'd also say that though some or even most people value lives differently, not everyone does.

[onejayhawk]

Ahh Jay, It has been so long that I forgot you are not very adept at the Art of Conversation. Many things in a dialogue must be taken in the full context of the conversation rather than one line at a time, which is all you seem to do. Things like sarcasm, innuendo, and of course..Humor seem to slip right by you. But hey that's cool, the world is full of people who are better at one thing or another than we are.

Let's get back to the topic at hand.

Do you think torture is EVER justified?

A question instead of telling me what I think. It's progress.

The answer is yes. It is possible to conceive of an occasion where torture is justified.

J

[GwynnInTheHall]

A question instead of telling me what I think. It's progress.

The answer is yes. It is possible to conceive of an occasion where torture is justified.

J

What occasion would that be Jack Bauer?

BTW, I'd never try and tell you what you think...........because I don't believe you actually do it much.

[onejayhawk]

If the fate of the human race depended on it.

As Spock would say, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

J

[Fresno Bob]

If the fate of the human race depended on it.

As Spock would say, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

J

Except Spock would know that the Vulcan mind meld would be infinitely more effective to get the info than torture.

#IDIC #treknerd

[GwynnInTheHall]

If the fate of the human race depended on it.

As Spock would say, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

J

So then, do you denounce the CIA for using torture in a non extinction situation?

[onejayhawk]

So then, do you denounce the CIA for using torture in a non extinction situation?

Work with me.

Do you acknowledge that there is a point where torture becomes morally acceptable?

J

[onejayhawk]

Except Spock would know that the Vulcan mind meld would be infinitely more effective to get the info than torture.

#IDIC #treknerd

You are talking context, not absolutes.

J

[GwynnInTheHall]

Work with me.

Do you acknowledge that there is a point where torture becomes morally acceptable?

J

No there isn't, so I won't and you didn't answer the question so i'll pose it again..........do you denounce the CIA for using torture in a non extinction situation?

[The Feral Slasher]

One of Obama's greatest accomplishments and the one I am by far the proudest about was that he immediately ended the torture regime instituted by George W. Bush before him. Pretty much everything else he's done on the topic, from praising the psychopaths in the intelligence community as "heroes" and "patriots" to pretty much stalling and refusing everything his crappy administration possibly could regarding this torture report, is pathetic.

It was good to end some of the practices of the Bush administration for sure, but in my mind there are still some questions about whether we ended torture. The treatment of the hunger strikers at Guantanamo (forced feeding, but at least it wasn't rectal !) and Bradley, now Chelsea, Manning are not something I'm proud of. I'm still not sure about extraordinary rendition and if we are just having other countries doing are dirty work or not.

When we prosecute one of the whistleblowers on torture, and don't prosecute the torturers themselves, how is there any incentive for anyone to speak up if torture is continuing ? Who is going to give up there life to point it out if torture occurs if they will just ruin their life, and the torturers will have no consequences ?

[DMT]

It was good to end some of the practices of the Bush administration for sure, but in my mind there are still some questions about whether we ended torture. The treatment of the hunger strikers at Guantanamo (forced feeding, but at least it wasn't rectal !) and Bradley, now Chelsea, Manning are not something I'm proud of. I'm still not sure about extraordinary rendition and if we are just having other countries doing are dirty work or not.

When we prosecute one of the whistleblowers on torture, and don't prosecute the torturers themselves, how is there any incentive for anyone to speak up if torture is continuing ? Who is going to give up there life to point it out if torture occurs if they will just ruin their life, and the torturers will have no consequences ?

Agreed...Obama's administration has an absolutely atrocious record on targeting whistle blowers.

[onejayhawk]

No there isn't, so I won't and you didn't answer the question so i'll pose it again..........do you denounce the CIA for using torture in a non extinction situation?

If you do not acknowledge that torture is acceptable in a genocide situation, then the conversation is over. We have no point of contact.

J

[GwynnInTheHall]

If you do not acknowledge that torture is acceptable in a genocide situation, then the conversation is over. We have no point of contact.

J

You said human race, not one segment of it. Genocide is horrible but not the same as saving all of humanity. I'd ask you if you would acknowledge the difference, but you'd again find a way out of having to answer the hard question. You obviously agree with what the CIA did but just don't want to be eviscerated soooooo....

I will try to find some links for you to a free online English comp, that's short for comprehension, class so that you might be better armed going forward.

Until then could you surround your posts with two blue lines, just like those parking spaces at the front of the stores...... Ps that's a joke.


Pss that's still a chicken shit way to get out of answering the question.