Egypt demonstrations

[Kevin Seitzer]

Lots of momentous things going on in Egypt this week, and I thought we should have a thread about them.

It will be interesting to see what today's protests bring. With the military standing behind Mubarak, it's hard to see his government falling.

And, boy, did Joe Biden manage to put his foot in his mouth on this one.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0127/Joe-Biden-says-Egypt-s-Mubarak-no-dictator-he-shouldn-t-step-down

[chancellor]

I intentionally restrained from commenting on Biden, so thanks for pointing that out.

It appears the government has pulled the plug on the Internet in Egypt and is actively interfering in cell phone traffic to limit the demonstrators ability to organize.

It sure appears to be a damned-if-you-do and damned-if-you-don't situation here - Mubarek's government is wholly incompetent, but even with the military, if the Moslem Brotherhood decides to join in the overthrow goal, I think his government goes down. But if the Moslem Brotherhood joins, and there's truly transparent elections held...well, they could well win. And that's really bad, too, given their past history.

EDIT to Correct: The Noor group appears to be up: http://www.renesys.com/blog/2011/01/...internet.shtml

Edit2 - The Mubarek family (but not Hosni) are rumored to have fled to the UK.

[amcg]

For those interested, here's the live feed.

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

[B-Fly]

This appears likely to continue spreading throughout the autocratic US-supported regimes of the Middle East. While I realize that true democracy in the Middle East may be far more harmful to American interests in the region than the devils we know, I don't see how we can rightly denounce the protests and announce our moral support for these regimes without truly abandoning the principles we purport to believe in.

[JudeBaldo]

I intentionally restrained from commenting on Biden, so thanks for pointing that out.

It appears the government has pulled the plug on the Internet in Egypt and is actively interfering in cell phone traffic to limit the demonstrators ability to organize.

It sure appears to be a damned-if-you-do and damned-if-you-don't situation here - Mubarek's government is wholly incompetent, but even with the military, if the Moslem Brotherhood decides to join in the overthrow goal, I think his government goes down. But if the Moslem Brotherhood joins, and there's truly transparent elections held...well, they could well win. And that's really bad, too, given their past history.

EDIT to Correct: The Noor group appears to be up: http://www.renesys.com/blog/2011/01/...internet.shtml

Edit2 - The Mubarek family (but not Hosni) are rumored to have fled to the UK.

Curious why you would choose to spell it this way?

[JudeBaldo]

Crazy times. I need to educate myself further on what, exactly, is going on over there. I did find it interesting to learn that Egypt is the #2 recipient of US foreign aid behind Israel.

Internet and cell phone service has been disrupted and dissolved throughout most of Egypt, much of it coming shortly after a video of a citizen being killed was aired.

Crazy, violent videos are abounding with the police and military cracking down HARD on protesters.

Apparently the ruling party's headquarters is on fire right now.

People are openly defying the curfew. Mubarak and his cronies are on borrowed time. Here's hoping though the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't end up controlling Egypt after this mess. Though one indicator that has me worried, is the increase in women wearing hijabs that may be a sign of things to come.

[Bob Kohm]

It's a tough situation. Mubarak is scum and his regime is much more repressive than generally reported in the West, but a Muslim Brotherhood takeover of Egypt is, in a word, unacceptable-- and even more so to the neighboring Israelis than it is to us. A Muslim Brotherhood takeover makes a general war in the Middle East much more likely and the Egyptians are well armed-- call their level of technology roughly equivalent to the US in the late-90s. Their ground forces have the highest level of training in the Arab world (no Saudi weekend tank shooters there) and their C4I standards are high-- Egypt's military would pose a challenge to Israel on its own and combined in 1960s/70s style with Syria it would constitute a potentially lethal threat to Jerusalem.

Here's the thing-- as repressive as Mubarak is the Brotherhood would be even more so as well as constituting a threat to Israel, the United States and (not hyperbolically) world peace. You can't put a group that is one step from rivaling the Talib's in hostility and repression on Israel's border with a well equipped and trained military and sole control of one of the world's most important waterways, the Suez Canal, and not expect immense repercussions.

Some here will look at Mubarak and be taken (it's hard not to be) with the cry for freedom from his people. The wise would resist that urge with the understanding that what would manifest itself in Cairo would not be a government that fit any sense of enlightened rule and that could easily start a war on one of the most strategic pieces of ground on the planet. We as a nation should do anything possible to nurse Mubarak through the coming days and find a way to get rid of him on terms that would actually grant freedom to his people without throwing yet another flare into the Middle Eastern powderkeg.

[chancellor]

Curious why you would choose to spell it this way?

It's six in one, half dozen the other. Moslem (or muslim) translates to "one who submits", implied, to the will of Allah, or God. The pronunciation differs as one travels through the Arab world - my experience, admittedly is more with those who are Egyptian, Jordanian, or Iranian/Persian. Those who are Egyptian or Iranian tend toward the "moslem" pronounciation and English spelling. I'm told those of Iraqi/Saudi/Jordanian/Syrian ethnicity tend to the "muslim" pronounciation and spelling.

GITH would be a better direct reference on this as he's vastly more fluent in Arabic than I am.

[Erik]

Not that it means much, but I spent a month in India in 1980, and I remember "Moslem" and "Muslim" being used about equally.

[onejayhawk]

All these years, supposedly Mubarak has been grooming his son to take over. 15 years ago, when Mubarak was in his mid 60s, they might have managed it. Now, about the only thing everyone agrees on is that they hate the guy. It reminds me of the mess in Cuba.

J

[OaklandA's]

Islamic groups prefer the term "Muslim". In Arabic, "Muslim" means "one who gives himself to God," while "Moslem" if pronounced with a "z" sound as most Americans do, means "one who is evil and unjust."

Almost all of the anti-Islam web sites use "Moslem" these days.

[SPF]

Meh. Another Sports Bar topic where the crowd talks and talks and talks and does diddly crap about anything they spew on their opinion. Take some REAL action already. 10 years of talking the Bar hasn't improved the world any to date. Do something about it if you actually care.

[Erik]

Meh. Another Sports Bar topic where the crowd talks and talks and talks and does diddly crap about anything they spew on their opinion. Take some REAL action already. 10 years of talking the Bar hasn't improved the world any to date. Do something about it if you actually care.

So you're heading over to Egypt, then?

[chancellor]

Meh. Another Sports Bar topic where the crowd talks and talks and talks and does diddly crap about anything they spew on their opinion.

LOL...really? Everyone can't take action on everything, but it's still important to be informed in case one has an opportunity to influence an issue in the right way. As for nobody doing anything, that's pretty funny. Just off the top of my head, I know TMac sponsored numerous foster kids, Bob Kohm has directly helped at least two people get directly engaged in the political process, Kevin Seitzer's improved his career and was a delegate in the last presidential election, I've received sponsorship for mission work in Africa, there was a major leukemia drive - and I'm sure I'm missing another 10-20 times where the Sports Bar was publicly and directly engaged in a positive activity. And that doesn't count what happens behind the scenes.

[amcg]

Meh. Another Sports Bar topic where the crowd talks and talks and talks and does diddly crap about anything they spew on their opinion. Take some REAL action already. 10 years of talking the Bar hasn't improved the world any to date. Do something about it if you actually care.

Em, yes.

That's what we do in the Sports Bar.

And sometimes the threads are cr@p, and sometimes they prove to be remarkable meeting points of views and opinions expressed with lucidity and passion.

Being able to talk and talk and talk about things with people of diverse and often diametrically opposed world views is actually quite rare, and quite important. The alternative is the too-often-seen self-referential and self-enforcing circle of 'debate' where one is never exposed to opposing views unless accompanied by mockery and hate.

And now, as Sports Bar Bartender, I'll take your order.