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onejayhawk
03-11-2011, 09:23 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12709598

Watch the video at the link. Seriously.

J

johnnya24
03-11-2011, 09:44 AM
Some of the Tsunami shots really brought the 2004 Tsunami into perspective. This was a 7 metre wave that cut through the land ... Indonesia was hit with a 23 metre wave in places in 2004. Horrific.

Death toll says 90 right now ... no way that is close to correct judging by some of the Tsunami footage.

Moonlight J
03-11-2011, 10:05 AM
http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/large/255922411.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1299853293&Signature=2oG1DiNh1DmgtZUVe4pZBTEwm6Q%3D

NakedRicci
03-11-2011, 11:00 AM
wow. Some of the pics/videos are crazy. I lived in Japan for about 5 months in '87 (but in the southern portion of the country -- Kobe area) and what the reports are saying about death toll being lower because they are so prepared I can believe. While I was there we had 2 earthquakes. Both small. I damn-near flipped my sh!t. We don't get many earthquakes in Indiana. But the family I was staying with just calmly went about their business of what to do while I was pissing myself as I watched my dresser move 6' across the floor and fall over. After the fact they got a laugh at my shaking expense. The huge quake that hit Japan circa 1993-94 that devestated portions of Kobe, Nishinomia, Takarazuka City had its epicenter mere miles from where I stayed.

My best thoughts and wishes to the people in Japan and to anyone who may have family or friends over there. The live reports are not getting much better from what I've seen with large parts of Sendai City in flames and reports of entire smaller villages being washed away. And an entire passenger train MISSING. :(

TranaGreg
03-11-2011, 11:21 AM
yeah, some of the pics I've seen look like they could be from Battle for LA ... my boss was supposed to fly to Tokyo this morning - don't think so.

Moonlight J
03-11-2011, 11:22 AM
the pics are unbelievable -- an entire boat is also missing that had 100 people on it

NakedRicci
03-11-2011, 11:43 AM
BBC just reported that a major dam has now burst in northern Japan and that cooldown has failed at one nuclear plant.

edit: backup safety measures at the nuclear plant apparently have been effective.

Piney Boy
03-11-2011, 11:50 AM
A team of guys that I work with were to fly out to Japan today to install a new system that I worked on. Guess they are getting delayed now unless Myoto is still open.

amcg
03-11-2011, 12:58 PM
Reports that they found 200-300 bodies further up the coast.

Horrible.

Footage is horrific but incredible.

My friends are safe, got word from them this morning.

NakedRicci
03-11-2011, 01:00 PM
they are now reporting over 300 dead and over 500 missing. but it's still the middle of the night there, so until daylight comes, these numbers are just the tip.

NakedRicci
03-11-2011, 01:09 PM
Okay, I have to say this once only.... No offense intended to christian members of the Pen, but I've gone through a number of YouTube videos looking for amature videos. The sheer number of people posting things like "This is God's judgment" and "Just another example of God giving people what they deserve." WTF?!?! really? Take your hateful asses, pick up those Westboro nutjobs and get the f*ck off the planet. You are taking up valuable space and breathing oxygen that would be better used by someone else. gah... :(

johnnya24
03-11-2011, 01:18 PM
A second passenger train now unaccounted for, that's 2 trains and a boat. Hundreds of people missing just there.

Bob Kohm
03-11-2011, 01:46 PM
And the nuclear plant is back in trouble, with pressure rising inside the reactor and cooling efforts at a critical juncture.

johnnya24
03-11-2011, 01:54 PM
Saw on Twitter they are having to release air from the reactor to keep it from overheating ... that doesn't sound like "under control" to me.

NakedRicci
03-11-2011, 02:00 PM
Saw on Twitter they are having to release air from the reactor to keep it from overheating ... that doesn't sound like "under control" to me.



Ya, I just saw that too. :/

NakedRicci
03-11-2011, 02:02 PM
This was a hard-luck league -- play what you draft, no transactions in season

Round: 1
(1) Cabrera's Cab Company - Albert Pujols 1B
** (2) Team Collette - Ryan Braun LF
(3) Bartolo Colon's Breakfast - Hanley Ramirez SS
(4) Richmond Hill Rockers - Carl Crawford LF
(5) Fat, Drunk and Stupid - Miguel Cabrera 1B
(6) Charlie Sheen's Goddesses - Carlos Gonzalez LF
(7) Tripoli the Hammer - Evan Longoria 3B
(8) affton Animals - Troy Tulowitzki SS
(9) BayArea Flowers - Joey Votto 1B
(10) Team Daugherty - Matt Holliday LF
(11) Boats 'N Hoes - David Wright 3B
(12) Team Adams - Robinson Cano 2B


um... wrong thread MJ? ;)

johnnya24
03-11-2011, 02:08 PM
um... wrong thread MJ? ;)
Send him a PM :)

NakedRicci
03-11-2011, 02:11 PM
wow...the BBC is now reporting that the 300 reported dead (the bodies that were washed up) were reported from just one neighborhood in Sendai City. This certainly would seem to indicate that the "over 1000 dead" early prediction is going to ring as a gross understatement. Hopefully this BBC report is not accurate.

Moonlight J
03-11-2011, 02:14 PM
aw crap on a crutch...my apologies

johnnya24
03-11-2011, 02:43 PM
wow...the BBC is now reporting that the 300 reported dead (the bodies that were washed up) were reported from just one neighborhood in Sendai City. This certainly would seem to indicate that the "over 1000 dead" early prediction is going to ring as a gross understatement. Hopefully this BBC report is not accurate.
Final figure will surely be more than the 1000 figure being bandied about now. It's the middle of the night there ... the real picture won't be clear for a few hours yet.

On the topic of the reactor, apparently there is not going to be a solution to the cooling failure any time soon, and the pressure is increasing all the while. I was watching a feed from a Japanese news station which showed a power station (not sure if it was the reactor) seeping black smoke ... and then a Japanese press conference with a stressed and unsettled looking bloke, who I think is in charge of the safety of the Nuclear plants.

johnnya24
03-11-2011, 02:50 PM
Inappropriate I think

Moonlight J
03-11-2011, 02:59 PM
http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/quake1/bp36.jpg

NakedRicci
03-11-2011, 03:02 PM
BBC now saying "several thousand dead".

NakedRicci
03-11-2011, 03:33 PM
another quake (or aftershock?) of 6.2 has now hit Nagano, Japan

TranaGreg
03-12-2011, 07:14 AM
well after this morning's explosion most reports are now using the phrase "possible meltdown" ... sounds very very bad. Elsewhere, entire towns are destroyed.
http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/db/74/80f044444f189549bc8b1f94170b.jpeg
http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/cf/26/d69a3d254bccbd4207d17ee12197.jpeg

johnnya24
03-12-2011, 07:50 AM
"it has yet to be confirmed whether [the explosion at Fukushima No 1 plant] was that of a nuclear reactor itself"

... safety zone extended to 20KM. Even if the explosion didn't come from the reactor, it surely had to damage it.

It seems be basically can't trust any statements coming from the Japanese nuclear authorities as they have a history of lying and playing down incidents in order to prevent public panic.

"10,000 people are missing in the town of Minamisanriku in Miyagi prefecture."

johnnya24
03-12-2011, 08:57 AM
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/3/12/1299934115245/Cargo-containers-thrown-a-007.jpg

onejayhawk
03-12-2011, 09:36 AM
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/3/12/1299934115245/Cargo-containers-thrown-a-007.jpg
As someone that has worked extensively with shipping containers, that is an as bad as any pic I have seen.

J

TranaGreg
03-12-2011, 10:23 AM
As someone that has worked extensively with shipping containers, that is an as bad as any pic I have seen.

J

and yet there are so many to choose from ...

http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/01240/Car_on_roof_jpg_1240383cl-f.jpg
http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/01239/buildings-1500__1239663cl-f.jpg
http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/01239/overlooking-150_1239666cl-f.jpg
http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/01240/SIN243-JAPAN-QU_1240003cl-f.jpg

amcg
03-12-2011, 11:26 AM
9,500 people missing from a single port town, Minamisanriku. Check out this video - at about 38 seconds in they compare before and after shots of the town from the air. It bears a striking similarity, although smaller scale, to before and after photos of Hiroshima.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zduhngJvCAY&feature=youtu.be

johnnya24
03-12-2011, 12:06 PM
9,500 people missing from a single port town, Minamisanriku. Check out this video - at about 38 seconds in they compare before and after shots of the town from the air. It bears a striking similarity, although smaller scale, to before and after photos of Hiroshima.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zduhngJvCAY&feature=youtu.be
Apparently the wave that hit Minamisanriku was four stories high.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6JVpy0L5z7s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

johnnya24
03-12-2011, 12:19 PM
Latest statement from the Japanese Nuclear Agency:

" Japan nuclear agency rates nuclear plant accident in Fukushima at 4 on 0-7 international scale."

So the outer case of a reactor exploding is only a 4/7 ... IMO we have no clue what is actually going on here, and that is the vibe I'm getting from the expert commentators.

BuckyBuckner
03-14-2011, 02:19 PM
Some incredible before and after pictures. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42064847?gt1=43001)

SeaDogStat
03-14-2011, 03:22 PM
Some incredible before and after pictures. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42064847?gt1=43001)

Jeez Louise, that is incredible, Bucky...

Fresno Bob
03-14-2011, 03:30 PM
Here is a really chilling video of a first-person account of a town being swallowed up by the ocean. Crazy.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2uJN3Z1ryck" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

my wife forwarded me this one as well, what's most crazy is the timing, 6 frakking minutes and your town is gone.....

johnnya24
03-14-2011, 07:15 PM
A third explosion just heard at the Fukushima plant (from Reactor 2 apparently)

Edit: Explosion happened at 6.10am Japanese time ... news about the explosion does not hit the news agencies until 8.10am.

johnnya24
03-14-2011, 07:40 PM
And more bad news (presumably why they waited so long to reveal details):


More details on the reported blast at Fukushima's reactor 2. The explosion is feared to have damaged the reactor's pressure-suppression system, Kyodo says. It adds that "radiation tops legal limit" after the explosion

BBC


A rupture may have occurred inside the containment vessel at Fukushima's number two reactor, Japan's NHK public broadcaster is reporting.

Although details are only slowly emerging about the explosion that was heard there a short time ago, technicians have been told to evacuate the area

A nuclear export told the broadcaster that there may have been a radioactive leak as a result of the explosion at the vessel, which is supposed to prevent radiation from leaking out.

The explosion appears to be related to a fault with the suppression pool at the very bottom of the containment vessel. Steam is brought down to the pool and is used to cool the reactor.

CORRECTION: Around 50 technicians who are directly involved in the operation are remaining at the site of the explosion.

Guardian

... and the 50 employees who got the short straws are ...

Bob Kohm
03-14-2011, 10:00 PM
And more bad news (presumably why they waited so long to reveal details):

VoA Tokyo Bureau Chief (currently in Sendai) reports that international news crews are being ordered to evacuate Sendai to get away from radiological effects, but opines it might be premature. PM Kan to address the nation with "major news" in coming moments, though.

[quote]... and the 50 employees who got the short straws are ...

May God preserve them; they may all be latter day Sergei Preminins, willfully sacrificing their lives to forestall an atomic disaster as he did on K-219.

Bob Kohm
03-14-2011, 10:02 PM
Two US Forces Japan pumping vehicles are rushing to Fukushima, crewed by US servicemen. Anyone else getting the awful feeling that the wheels may be coming off of this situation?

Bob Kohm
03-14-2011, 10:04 PM
Oh shlt.. Kan's address begins, "Please listen calmly. Every possible effort has been made to cool the reactors." That's going to be very bad, for a Japanese leader to speak that directly and with so little nuance.

Bob Kohm
03-14-2011, 10:05 PM
"Ther eis a very high risk of further radioactive materials coming out. We need everyone within a 20km radius to leave immediately, and within a 30km radius to stay indoors until told otherwise".

Bob Kohm
03-14-2011, 10:07 PM
It gets worse. A separate report from Tokyo Electric confirms fires burning at Daiichi 4 reactor.

Bob Kohm
03-14-2011, 10:09 PM
Joe, Eric and others can much better comment on Japanese nuance than I can as they have lived there, but from what I understand this kind of direct speech and appeal for calm reads as very disquieting to me. Anybody with first hand Japanese experience want to comment on that?

Bob Kohm
03-14-2011, 10:13 PM
Reactor #2 has an "observable hole" in it, according to Voice of America's bureau chief. Hopefully that means the building, not the containment vessel. If it is the vessel, all the talk of "Chernobyl comparisons are irresponsible" goes out the window and we will quite likely have a new Chernobyl.

Bob Kohm
03-14-2011, 11:01 PM
New hydrogen explosion at burning reactor 4.

johnnya24
03-15-2011, 12:32 AM
Add to all this the horrific new video that is going about of the first wave to hit the town with 10K people missing ...

Fresno Bob
03-15-2011, 02:13 AM
Joe, Eric and others can much better comment on Japanese nuance than I can as they have lived there, but from what I understand this kind of direct speech and appeal for calm reads as very disquieting to me. Anybody with first hand Japanese experience want to comment on that?

it's less than it used to be, but if it is the Emperor that gets on, then you know it's really really bad....my wife just told me that this reactor was supposed to be decommishioned this year....

johnnya24
03-15-2011, 08:03 AM
Add to all this the horrific new video that is going about of the first wave to hit the town with 10K people missing ...
This is the video ... they have cropped the bottom of the picture not to show the people fleeing the path of the wave:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VCMdPzwdRbc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

From 0.50 onwards, you get a fuller picture of the end of this video

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/IVSmqJ--4dw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

johnnya24
03-15-2011, 08:12 AM
Some perspective:

The heat that was being generated by the reactors was 10% of the heat when teh reactor was turned on before the Earthquake hit. Chernobyl was so serious because the reactor exploded while it was still at 100%.


Earlier we heard that 400 milliSieverts of radiation an hour had been recorded at Fukushima Daiichi's unit 3 reactor this morning. The Guardian's science correspondent Ian Sample has provided some context to the units being used to describe radiation levels.

"The levels of radiation being released by the nuclear power station are given in Sieverts. A microSievert is one millionth of a Sievert," Ian writes. "A milliSievert is one thousandth of a Sievert."

Ian offers these comparisons:

• 2 milliSieverts/year: The level of natural background radiation we are all exposed to.

• 9 milliSieverts/year: The typical dose received by an airline crew flying the New York to Tokyo polar route. Flying at altitude increases radiation exposure to cosmic rays.

• 100 milliSieverts/year: The lowest level at which an increase in cancer is evident.

<----------- READINGS OUTSIDE REACTOR (400) HERE ... (just downgraded to 60 ms) --------------->

• 1,000 milliSieverts accumulative: Estimated to cause a fatal cancer many years later in 5% of people.

• 1,000 milliSieverts single dose: Temporary radiation sickness, including nausea, lower white blood cell count. Not fatal.

• 5,000 milliSieverts single dose: Fatal within a month to half those who receive it.

• 10,000 milliSieverts single dose: Fatal within weeks.

Guardian

Currently 60ms at reactor site, 0.8ms in Tokyo. So right now, not a huge disaster. Although the French have just upgraded this disaster to a 6 (out of 7) on the disaster scale (7 being Chernobyl).

cardboardbox
03-15-2011, 01:05 PM
this whole thing makes me so sad.

nullnor
03-15-2011, 01:34 PM
facts on Chernobyl nuclear accident: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/15/us-nuclear-chernobyl-facts-idUSTRE72E42U20110315

1) Unlike the nuclear crisis in Japan which was caused by a natural disaster, the explosion and fire at the Chernobyl power plant on April 26, 1986 -- the world's worst nuclear accident -- was caused by human error.

2) Facility operators, in violation of safety regulations, had switched off important control systems at the Ukrainian plant's reactor number four and allowed it to reach unstable, low-power conditions, according to a United Nations report. A power surge led to a series of blasts, at 1.24 a.m., which blew off the reactor's heavy steel and concrete lid and sent a cloud of radioactive dust billowing across northern and western Europe, reaching as far as the eastern United States

3) they say between 4,000 to 734,000 ppl died.

4) Chernobyl engineers shut down the last functioning reactor, Number Three, in December 2000. Radioactive nuclear fuel is still being removed from the plant.

5) A make-shift cover -- the 'Sarcophagus' -- was built in six months after the explosion. It covers the stricken reactor to protect the environment from radiation for at least 30 years. This has now developed cracks, triggering an international effort to fund a new encasement.

6) Officials say it could be up to 100 years before the station is completely decommissioned.

7) A 30-km (19-mile) exclusion zone is in place round the disaster site.

8) Wildlife has made a comeback in this area and there are said to be more than 60 different types of mammals living there including wild boar and elk.

a book i actually read 15 years ago:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EOPE6tdOL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg
Medvedev, a chief engineer at Chernobyl when it was built in 1970, graphically describes the events leading up to and following the world's worst nuclear accident. Asked to conduct an investigation less than two weeks after the explosion, he interviewed most of the major participants, including many who died within weeks from radiation sickness. In lucid detail and with an insider's understanding, Medvedev describes the human and technical failings that led to the accident and, with enormous compassion, recounts the efforts of firefighters and many of the reactor's operators who gave their lives in the struggle to contain the disaster. i didn't understand the book. but without a containment vessel, i did grasp, that ppl really did intentionally sacrifice their lives to make one at the last minute..

johnnya24
03-15-2011, 06:03 PM
This kind of political knee-jerk reacting makes me sick:


Angela Merkel's U-turn on nuclear energy became even more gear-crunching on Tuesday when she announced the temporary closure of seven of Germany's nuclear power stations.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/15/germany-merkel-switches-nuclear-power-off

This just seems like a completely ridiculous response.

johnnya24
03-15-2011, 09:29 PM
I've been thinking about this a lot. I don't know if I would characterize the response as ridiculous at all.

Even as a proponent of nuclear power, I think it's pretty clear that the fallout from a disaster at this type of facility is far more severe than pretty much any other facility known to man.

I think temporarily closing 7 old plants in order to do a safety review is pretty responsible, actually.
The catalogue of events that conspired to create the Fukushima incident are off the scale in terms of odds. Fingers crossed, and I hope I'm not tempting fate by saying this ... but despite the sh8tstorm that has hit that place:

9.0 Earthquake
Tsunami
Cooling Failure
4 massive explosions
Meltdowns
Fires in the storage reactors

... the likely outcome is that no serious radiation leaks will occur that could damage human life (touch wood again).

I know it might seem counter-intuitive to say this, but the seriousness of this incident, combined with the failure of many of the safety mechanisms at the plant (all of which are outdated by modern nuclear safety standards), combined with the fact that the plant was built in an earthquake/Tsunami hotspot, combined with the fact this is a very old reactor design, combined with the [hopefully] limited repercussions from the incident (touch wood again), actually proves that nuclear energy is actually a relatively safe and clean energy solution.

I mean if an old plant can basically blow up, have all it's (old and insufficient) safety mechanisms fail, and still we only get a localised incident with no loss of life as a consequence of radiation ... this is a big tick for Nuclear power (which is a big debate in the UK right now).

johnnya24
03-15-2011, 09:36 PM
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/3/15/1300190281085/A-house-adrift-in-the-Pac-003.jpg

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/3/15/1300190278391/Japan-Ground-Self-Defence-001.jpg

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/3/15/1300208260067/A-rescue-worker-takes-a-b-021.jpg

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/3/15/1300208261116/Aftermath-of-Earthquake-a-022.jpg

Bob Kohm
03-15-2011, 09:43 PM
I know it might seem counter-intuitive to say this, but the seriousness of this incident, combined with the failure of many of the safety mechanisms at the plant (all of which are outdated by modern nuclear safety standards), combined with the fact that the plant was built in an earthquake/Tsunami hotspot, combined with the fact this is a very old reactor design, combined with the [hopefully] limited repercussions from the incident (touch wood again), actually proves that nuclear energy is actually a relatively safe and clean energy solution.

I mean if an old plant can basically blow up, have all it's (old and insufficient) safety mechanisms fail, and still we only get a localised incident with no loss of life as a consequence of radiation ... this is a big tick for Nuclear power (which is a big debate in the UK right now).

Not to be a pessimist here, Johnny, but I'd hold that commentary for at least a few more days. I think it's pretty clear that TEPCO & the Kan Admin are not telling the whole story on this event and the persistent fires at #4 coupled with the "We have a containment breach, er uhm, no we don't have a containment breach well, maybe we have a containment breach at #2" aren't sitting well with me. We now have five and perhaps six units between two plants experiencing coolant system failures, a containment pool that is or isn't (depending on whom you ask and at which minute you ask them) boiling fast enough to cook pasta and major crew evacuations all in a zone that is still expecting a 7.0 aftershock offshore that could produce another tsunami. Couple that to the possible thermal and shock degradation of the containment vessels (which, as mentioned, may have already seen a failure) and, well...

Edit to add: Oh, and now heavy white smoke (hopefully not steam...) is pouring out of Daiichi #3, with TEPCO officials saying they don't know why.

johnnya24
03-15-2011, 10:11 PM
Edit to add: Oh, and now heavy white smoke (hopefully not steam...) is pouring out of Daiichi #3, with TEPCO officials saying they don't know why.
Yeah just saw that after I posted ... many twitter reports saying its steam, but nothing concrete ... radioactive steam?

One other thing that has taken my eye is the contrast between how the Japanese authorities what to deal with the situation: the old fashioned way, holding back details so as not to cause public panic etc, and the international press, which wants to know and report everything instantaneously ... and sensationalise every single bit of information even when they don't have all the facts.

I half expect the head of Tepco to offer to fall on his sword when this is all over.

I was watching one of the stations Asian broadcasts late last night, with some really rude anchor interviewing a nuclear expert. He kept explaining the facts as he saw them, and she kept trying to get him to agree to possible worst-case-scenario outcomes for every little detail. It was as if they made an editorial decision to hype up every little incident for ratings purposes.

So we end with this situation ... we want to watch to see what is unfolding, but the fact that we are watching is effecting how they are reporting the news, because they want us to keep watching and in greater and greater numbers. Thank god for the BBC's ad-free and slightly boring coverage (minus the dramatic theme music and disaster jingles).

Edit: then I go to Twitter to see if the chatter is bringing up anything new ... making me, in some small way, part of the cause of the decline in journalism standards.

PaleoMan
03-15-2011, 10:14 PM
Insight on the disaster from a former nuclear power professional:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/82300.html

johnnya24
03-15-2011, 10:27 PM
Yeah just saw that after I posted ... many twitter reports saying its steam, but nothing concrete ... radioactive steam?

Chatter now suggesting fresh fire at reactor 4 ...

White smoke / steam coming from Reactor 3.

I also heard that radiation too high at Reactor 1 for workers to go there.

But Chief Cabinet Secretary Edano also just said radiation levels falling during the day after briefly rising earlier ... so many mixed signals.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/index.html

Bob Kohm
03-15-2011, 10:37 PM
Chatter now suggesting fresh fire at reactor 4 ...

A major "Oh Sh*t" moment now-- Chief Cabinet Secretary Edano announces that the source of the "smoke" is the containment vessel of Daiichi #3, that radiation levels have spiked and are too high to continue firefighting in the complex and that all workers have been evacuated.

That cannot be good, although I'm not able to say how dire it is. It sounds, well... yeah, dire. Are they really saying that they've abandoned the complex with these reactors doing what they're doing? Good god, I hope not.

PaleoMan
03-15-2011, 10:49 PM
5:50 mark covers the folly of nuclear facilities without around the clock maintenance. Given the incredible half-lifes of the isotopes we use for fuel, is it really worth it?

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johnnya24
03-15-2011, 10:50 PM
A major "Oh Sh*t" moment now-- Chief Cabinet Secretary Edano announces that the source of the "smoke" is the containment vessel of Daiichi #3, that radiation levels have spiked and are too high to continue firefighting in the complex and that all workers have been evacuated.

That cannot be good, although I'm not able to say how dire it is. It sounds, well... yeah, dire. Are they really saying that they've abandoned the complex with these reactors doing what they're doing? Good god, I hope not.
I heard they were evacuating from Reactor 1 ... I saw the interview with Edano, and he was talking about how they are getting water to Reactor 4. So I'm guessing the evacuation they are talking about on Twitter etc has to do with the spikes in radiation at Reactor 1 ... but as usual ... nothing is clear.

Bob Kohm
03-15-2011, 11:03 PM
I heard they were evacuating from Reactor 1 ... I saw the interview with Edano, and he was talking about how they are getting water to Reactor 4. So I'm guessing the evacuation they are talking about on Twitter etc has to do with the spikes in radiation at Reactor 1 ... but as usual ... nothing is clear.

Very unclear... "Fukushima-1" has also been how they've been referring to Fukushima Daiichi and "Fukushima-2" as Fukushima Daini. The Washingotn Post article suggests that they've abandoned the entire facility and the "50" have been evacuated, Anderson Cooper on CNN has just said the 50 are still there and are likely being exposed right now to lethal doses of radiation as they fight to keep control.

The Tweets I was following on the Edano speech seem to indicate that they were talking about helicopter drops at the reactor 4 pool. You have to wonder if Edano, TEPCO, or anyone else actually understands what is happening there.

Bob Kohm
03-15-2011, 11:59 PM
Just got a Tweet from a Reuters correspondent saying that crew evacuation will be lifted at 0230 GMT due to falling rad levels. One wonders if that's the reason or the fact that the entire world press corps just went ape **** after the Edano presser.

PaleoMan
03-16-2011, 12:10 AM
Japanese prime minister supposedly used expletives in exchange with TEPCO management, over tardy alerts regarding reactor conditions.

johnnya24
03-16-2011, 07:44 AM
Just got a Tweet from a Reuters correspondent saying that crew evacuation will be lifted at 0230 GMT due to falling rad levels. One wonders if that's the reason or the fact that the entire world press corps just went ape **** after the Edano presser.
As much as I hate spin doctors, the Japanese authorities should be taking a long hard look at how they are presenting information. People aren't stupid ... they know when they are being lied to, and that will cause just as much panic and suspicion, especially when the press are telling a different story.

That was a bizarre press conference. First Twitter reports mentioned that he announced the withdrawal of all staff from Fuk1 due to dangerous levels of radiation ... but by the end of the press conference he is trying to ease concerns over reactors 3 & 4, and falling levels of radiation through the day. What picture are they trying to paint? It like they are trying to control information, but have no actual plan on how to do this.

Bob Kohm
03-16-2011, 09:30 AM
... but if it is the Emperor that gets on, then you know it's really really bad....

aaaaand.... mark. http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/16/japan.disaster/index.html?hpt=T1

Bob Kohm
03-16-2011, 09:31 AM
As much as I hate spin doctors, the Japanese authorities should be taking a long hard look at how they are presenting information. People aren't stupid ... they know when they are being lied to, and that will cause just as much panic and suspicion, especially when the press are telling a different story.

That was a bizarre press conference. First Twitter reports mentioned that he announced the withdrawal of all staff from Fuk1 due to dangerous levels of radiation ... but by the end of the press conference he is trying to ease concerns over reactors 3 & 4, and falling levels of radiation through the day. What picture are they trying to paint? It like they are trying to control information, but have no actual plan on how to do this.

Their information containment strategy is certainly more flawed than their reactor containment vessels and given that those have started to crack, too...

Fresno Bob
03-16-2011, 10:24 AM
aaaaand.... mark. http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/16/japan.disaster/index.html?hpt=T1

frakking frak frak....

onejayhawk
03-16-2011, 01:12 PM
Their information containment strategy is certainly more flawed than their reactor containment vessels and given that those have started to crack, too...

Their reactor containment was designed in the Eisenhower administration. one hopes there have been advances since then.

J

NakedRicci
03-16-2011, 01:35 PM
From 0.50 onwards, you get a fuller picture of the end of this video



It was more than a little disturbing to see people in this video taking their time coming up the path. some even looked like they took time to look back and watch the waters coming. It was a bit dark on my monitor, but it seemed fairly clear that at least one of those people got caught up with and got washed around the corner and "off-screen". Some of these videos can just make you sick.

To answer Bob and to echo Fresno.... I agree, that although it has lessened a bit from 25-30 years ago, there was a LOT of weight in what the Emperor was saying and how he said it. I'm sure the presence of his voice in this disaster in a direct report/plea to the people really sets the gravity for the population. It certainly gave me an uncomfortable feeling hearing it.

joncarlos
03-16-2011, 10:43 PM
I don't know how old these numbers are, and I know it's hard to get to Japan right now, but really? Are we just slightly ahead of Botswana in terms of aid sent at this point?

John Roos, the U.S. ambassador to Japan, said the U.S. military has delivered over 7,000 pounds of food and water to the disaster area so far and more than $5.8 million of U.S. aid has come to Japan.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/16/japan.disaster/index.html?hpt=T1

Bob Kohm
03-17-2011, 11:18 AM
JC, the US military is busy using every ounce of heavy lift capacity it has in East Asia to move Japanese heavy equipment into the tsunami area-- yesterday there were pictures of one of our amphibs loading backhoes, trucks, jeeps and excavators onto the flight deck with cranes to sail them into a town that has been cut off by road. All of our choppers that could be carrying food are similarly carrying construction equipment or ferrying Japanese officials or relief workers or flying in support of not having Fukushima Prefecture residents glow green or purple all night long for the next 300 years. Given that so many of our men and women are risking their lives making insanely difficult overload landings or actually flying over the Daiichi complex I'm not sure I'd be callign them out for not delivering enough food and water at this stage.

In terms of aid, I don't think the American public is going to give to a wealthy nation like Japan the way they gave to Haiti or Indonesia; the perception (rightly or wrongly) is that Japan or New Zealand or the like don't really need our cash-- they need our expertise and military assistance much more than that. When all is said and done the "dollar amount" of aid that goes to Japan will be tremendous and the amount that comes from the US will be far and away the greatest, but the help we're giving them right now is priceless as we're the only ones with the sea-deployable lift capacity to do it. Without US Navy helicopters and ships and the US Army/Marine/AirForce heavy lift capacity already based in Japan burning unlimited amounts of fuel, blowing through maintenance and putting American lives at risk this rescue and re-establishment phase of the disaster would be much, much worse as impossible as that is to conceive.

Fresno Bob
03-17-2011, 02:11 PM
JC, the US military is busy using every ounce of heavy lift capacity it has in East Asia to move Japanese heavy equipment into the tsunami area-- yesterday there were pictures of one of our amphibs loading backhoes, trucks, jeeps and excavators onto the flight deck with cranes to sail them into a town that has been cut off by road. All of our choppers that could be carrying food are similarly carrying construction equipment or ferrying Japanese officials or relief workers or flying in support of not having Fukushima Prefecture residents glow green or purple all night long for the next 300 years. Given that so many of our men and women are risking their lives making insanely difficult overload landings or actually flying over the Daiichi complex I'm not sure I'd be callign them out for not delivering enough food and water at this stage.

In terms of aid, I don't think the American public is going to give to a wealthy nation like Japan the way they gave to Haiti or Indonesia; the perception (rightly or wrongly) is that Japan or New Zealand or the like don't really need our cash-- they need our expertise and military assistance much more than that. When all is said and done the "dollar amount" of aid that goes to Japan will be tremendous and the amount that comes from the US will be far and away the greatest, but the help we're giving them right now is priceless as we're the only ones with the sea-deployable lift capacity to do it. Without US Navy helicopters and ships and the US Army/Marine/AirForce heavy lift capacity already based in Japan burning unlimited amounts of fuel, blowing through maintenance and putting American lives at risk this rescue and re-establishment phase of the disaster would be much, much worse as impossible as that is to conceive.

The 7th Fleet has been in there since 12 hours after the tsunami......

DMT
03-17-2011, 09:54 PM
Living Social is matching $5 donations to the American Red Cross.

http://livingsocial.com/deals/32115-5-for-10-donation-to-red-cross-relief-efforts

Mithrandir
03-19-2011, 04:30 PM
Why did this happen?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367208/Japan-tsunami-earthquake-Mayor-claims-people-abandoned.html

How serious is this?? Really? Are we being mislead by the government as to the seriousness of this disaster?

chancellor
03-19-2011, 05:05 PM
How serious is this?? Really? Are we being mislead by the government as to the seriousness of this disaster?

Which government? Ours has been pretty clear that the recommended separation should be about 50 miles; recent radiation readings seem to bear that out, with rad levels being in the normal range 15 miles from the center of the highest radiation emitter.

johnnya24
03-19-2011, 09:49 PM
Why did this happen?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367208/Japan-tsunami-earthquake-Mayor-claims-people-abandoned.html

How serious is this?? Really? Are we being mislead by the government as to the seriousness of this disaster?

I think international experts have been clear on the likely outcome of this incident, and it hasn't been as the Daily Mail puts it in this article:

"... international experts warned that Japan faces the world's worst nuclear disaster, the Tokyo cabinet blithely played down the crisis."

I never heard a single "expert" claim this was going to be "the worlds worst nuclear disaster". Most experts suggested from the beginning that the ceiling on this incident was nowhere near events like Chernobyl.

The Daily Mail is a sensationalist worthless rag of a newspaper ...

And a bit of perspective on this article:


Hours after the tsunami struck, Katsunobu Sakurai told me, he had sought advice from the government on whether to evacuate the 71,000 people in his city, which is just 12 miles downwind of the Fukushima nuclear plant.

At first ministerial officials simply ignored his calls.

So this guy is complaining that a few hours after a 9.0 earthquake and a massive Tsunami hit the country, that his little town wasn't top priority for the Japanese government?

The Japanese authorities may have a lot to answer for in their dealings with the Fukushima incident, but this isn't one IMO

johnnya24
03-19-2011, 10:24 PM
Just watched a documentary about the rise and fall of the Minoan civilisation in Crete. The civilisation basically began to crumble after Thira (Santorini) exploded in a volcano that was said to be 4x bigger than Krakatoa. How is that relevant? Apparently because to the earthquake and the massive landslides, a Tsunami 150 metres (that's right metres) hit Crete to the south. Mind-boggling. If you look at a map of Santorini, you can see the hole that the blast made in the island.

Which reminds me of a Horizon documentary a lot of years back about megatsunami's that are caused, not by earthquakes (although they can be), but by gigantic landslides often triggered by volcano's. Apparently the east coast of the USA/Central America has been identified as a possible target of one of these sometime in the future, with one of the big danger areas for a possibly catastrophic landslide being in the Canary Islands ... the megatsunami would cascade right across the Atlantic.


However, the western half of the volcano has an approximate volume of 500 km3 (5 x 1011 m3) and an estimated mass of 1.5 x 1015 kg. If it were to catastrophically slide into the ocean, it could generate a wave with an initial height of about 1,000 metres (3,281 ft) at the island, and a likely height of around 50 metres (164 ft) at the Caribbean and the Eastern North American seaboard when it runs ashore eight or more hours later. Tens of millions of lives would be lost as New York, Boston, Baltimore, Washington D.C., Miami, Havana, and many other cities near the Atlantic coast are leveled. The likelihood of this happening is a matter of vigorous debate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megatsunami#Canary_Islands

Mithrandir
03-19-2011, 11:14 PM
I think international experts have been clear on the likely outcome of this incident, and it hasn't been as the Daily Mail puts it in this article:

"... international experts warned that Japan faces the world's worst nuclear disaster, the Tokyo cabinet blithely played down the crisis."

I never heard a single "expert" claim this was going to be "the worlds worst nuclear disaster". Most experts suggested from the beginning that the ceiling on this incident was nowhere near events like Chernobyl.

The Daily Mail is a sensationalist worthless rag of a newspaper ...

And a bit of perspective on this article:



So this guy is complaining that a few hours after a 9.0 earthquake and a massive Tsunami hit the country, that his little town wasn't top priority for the Japanese government?

The Japanese authorities may have a lot to answer for in their dealings with the Fukushima incident, but this isn't one IMO

thanks.

Mithrandir
03-21-2011, 12:08 PM
I think international experts have been clear on the likely outcome of this incident, and it hasn't been as the Daily Mail puts it in this article:

"... international experts warned that Japan faces the world's worst nuclear disaster, the Tokyo cabinet blithely played down the crisis."

I never heard a single "expert" claim this was going to be "the worlds worst nuclear disaster". Most experts suggested from the beginning that the ceiling on this incident was nowhere near events like Chernobyl.

The Daily Mail is a sensationalist worthless rag of a newspaper ...

And a bit of perspective on this article:



So this guy is complaining that a few hours after a 9.0 earthquake and a massive Tsunami hit the country, that his little town wasn't top priority for the Japanese government?

The Japanese authorities may have a lot to answer for in their dealings with the Fukushima incident, but this isn't one IMO

71,000 people isn't exactly a "little town"

Mithrandir
03-21-2011, 12:21 PM
http://whatreallyhappened.com/node/107075

Mithrandir
03-21-2011, 01:25 PM
:eyerollsmiley:

so you're saying this is pretty much nonsense?

i am made aware of this stuff so I post it here for smarter minds to keep me better informed.

Fresno Bob
03-21-2011, 01:43 PM
what really happened is there was this giant earthquake, one of the largest quakes in 100 years, and it happened near a 40 year old reactor that was supposed to be decommissioned, and the reactor operated per spec, and started shutting itself down when the quake registered. But opps, there was this giant wave, and it destroyed the power infrastructure that was the primary power for the cooling shutdown procedure. No worries though, there are diesel generators on site as backup, but wait, that wave destroyed the diesel tanks that fuelled those generators, ok, Plan C, battery power. 8 hours worth, except, the whole region is overwhelmed, the containment barriers are weakened, and 8 hours isn't enough time to cool down a reactor.

That's what happened....

johnnya24
03-21-2011, 03:09 PM
71,000 people isn't exactly a "little town"

Yeah ... in the context of Japan it is probably considered a village.

I'm sure in the hours after the Tsunami, the (no-doubt) overwhelmed authorities had hundreds of similar calls.

Bob Kohm
03-21-2011, 04:09 PM
i am made aware of this stuff so I post it here for smarter minds to keep me better informed.

I thought that's what you used the preschool story time at the library for.

Mithrandir
03-21-2011, 07:07 PM
I thought that's what you used the preschool story time at the library for.

Nice Kohm-ment....get it Kohm-ment.. i crack myself up....

Bob Kohm
03-21-2011, 09:37 PM
Nice Kohm-ment....get it Kohm-ment.. i crack myself up....

Touche-- that was pretty damned funny, Mith.

But on more seriosu stuff-- anyone notice the US Navy just pulled every single ship out of Yokosuka (which is just south of Tokyo) for fear of the radiation plume? They went so far as to take the George Washington, a Nimitz-class carrier out of a maintenance period and sail it away with only a skeleton crew because they wanted it out of their so fast. Now word comes that DoD is considering mandatory evacuation for all personnel and families at the base.

I know that Johnny, in particular, has been very wisely trying to put some perspective on the radiation issue and damp down the more wild talk, but I am now increasingly confident that something very bad is happening or has the likelihood of happening if the US Navy has made these moves. First of all the last organization on the planet to cry wolf over nuclear issues is the US Navy, arguably the greatest repository of nuclear engineers in the entire world given the number of reactors they operate between the submarine and carrier services and all the land based nuclear reactors they run. Second, moving the Washington with a skeleton crew is a huge degradation of America's strategic preparedness in the Western Pacific at a time when Korea is still on the burner and China is making extremely aggressive moves against Japan, the Philippines and their SE Asian neighbors over the Spratly Islands-- this is not a move that would ever be made out of "remote chance" thinking. The move not only completely destroys the Washington's maintenance schedule, it puts a toothless CSG to sea without an air wing and without the sailors to take aboard an air wing-- for the CSG tasked with keeping China and North Korea honest, that is beyond huge in the strategic posturing of the United States. The Reagan CSG is in the area but is fully committed to disaster relief and is off of its training schedule as is; having CSG 9 (Washington's CSG) at sea at an inoperable readiness level is really, really big.

Obviously I do not like the portents here; there have been fairly persistent reports that Global Hawk surveillance drones have been loitering off the Japanese shore for several days and we have a few special operations "sniffer" planes that operate out of Alaska whose primary task is to collect trace radiation samples after Asian nuclear tests. I am seriously beginning to wonder just what they are picking up that would cause the Navy to make these dramatic moves, especially given that for radiation to get to Yokosuka it would have to first come over and through Tokyo itself. The only thing that gives me a minimal amount of comfort is that the US hasn't told everyone to get the heck out of Tokyo, which could mean a few things-- the first is that we're giving the Japanese government a little more time and space to get a handle on this and not cause a panicked flood out of Tokyo. The second that comes to mind is a communications disconnect between the Navy and the White House-- the Navy can order these moves on its own, and the White House may not be fully hearing what the Navy is undoubtedly saying to them-- it wouldn't be the first time in history, obviously, that communications have broken down between the military and Washington. A third possibility is that the Navy is seeing a significant but still less than the "public reporting threshold" risk of a radioactive catastrophe and is moving out of an abundance of caution based on their nuclear science and engineering knowledge-base. A fourth is that they're acting imprudently and out of panic. Clearly I do not see number four being a plausible scenario, and I have significant problems with the third scenario given the dramatically weakened strategic posture in Asia the moves put us in, leaving only the Reagan strike group, as I previously noted already fully committed to the disaster relief effort, available for action in the Pacific.

I'd put it at better than 50-50 that very bad news is coming before this time next week on this situation.

Bob Kohm
03-22-2011, 12:40 AM
The link below is an absolute must read after you read my above post. I've been talking on and off with the author since I posted this-- many of you have seen me highly recommend his work before; the guy is on the board of the US Naval Institute, lectures to high ranking and flag rank naval officers, and is without question the most respected writer on US Naval issues going. When he says this, believe him. One of the emails I got from him in our exchange tonight is the scariest email I've ever read; this will get worse.

http://tinyurl.com/48alapu

joncarlos
03-22-2011, 08:47 AM
Bhob is probably right.

Reactors 1 and 2 at Japan's earthquake-stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant suffered more damage from seawater than originally believed and will take more time to repair, the plant's owner said Tuesday.

The tsunami that followed the 9.0-magnitude earthquake March 11 damaged electrical components and coolant pumps in units 1 and 2. Those are two of the three units now believed to have suffered damage to their reactor cores, said Sakae Muto, vice president of the Tokyo Electric Power Company.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/22/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1

Fresno Bob
03-22-2011, 01:23 PM
what do you think about the proposal that the concern is around tsunami not radiation. There are still US troops on the ground without Rad-Suits, right?

wannabegriffey
03-23-2011, 01:51 PM
Just amazing video footage. So terribly sad and overwhelming.

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Iseenothing

wannabegriffey
03-23-2011, 02:17 PM
not working

B-Fly
03-23-2011, 03:15 PM
Radiation levels found in tap water in Tokyo that exceed the legal limits for infants.

Is radiation something that can be boiled out of tap water like other contaminants, or is bottled water the only viable alternative?

bryanbutler
03-24-2011, 12:57 AM
boiling does nothing to radiation in water.

Controller Jacobs
03-24-2011, 10:51 AM
I don't know why, but for some reason this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saito,_Miyazaki) Wikipedia entry specifically just crushes me.

When it existed, two weeks ago, it had nine elementary schools. It looks like this now:
http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20110314/capt.0df7214913574b1d819862eeef37be4c-0df7214913574b1d819862eeef37be4c-0.jpg

amcg
03-28-2011, 07:37 AM
I'd weigh in here and say that one huge, huge difference between this nuclear incident and Chernobyl is that we know about this one. We're not waiting for guys in Norway to radio in and say "guys, we've just detected a massive leap in radiation here... WTF?"

joncarlos
03-29-2011, 01:39 PM
Sometimes we should listen to Tinfoil Hat Bhob.

Japanese officials and international experts have said they believe there's been a partial meltdown at three of the plant's six reactors, and Edano reported Monday that the No. 2 reactor's containment vessel may be leaking.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/29/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T2