Unions under Attack...

[frae]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/02/17/teacher.budget.crisis/index.html?hpt=P1&iref=NS1

Ok, as some of you know I am a teacher so I have been following this whole Wisconsin thing with great interest. The new PA governor would be happy to see this come to pass here so I am watching to see what the national vibe is.

Looking up Wisconsin stats it appears the beginning salary is around 25K and the avg is 46K. I can't quickly find if they are required post grad work. I know in PA we need 24 post grad credits. I have no problem with the salary I am paid as I knew what I was getting into(this is often pointed out by people when a teacher dare complains about their salary or heaven forbid go on strike or use the collective bargaining process to get a better wage). For 16 years I will not be paid like a person with 2 undergrad degrees and over 30 degrees of post grad work, I will make under 60K and be ok with that. I also signed up for this because of the health benefits and the pension plan. I get that times are tough and in our last negotiation we definitely increased our health care contributions, but it sounds like states (Wi, NY, NJ and OH) are basically scapegoating teachers and other union workers for all their budget problems.

Anyway I am blatantly biased to the teachers side and I didn't really have anywhere else to go discuss this.

[Mithrandir]

I firmly believe the teaching profession is underpaid and not as respected as it should be. I also think the bad teachers are too abundant and they help lead to the poor image of teachers that many people have.

My two suggestions for the teachers have always been:

1. WEED OUT THE BAD TEACHERS ALREADY!!

2. DON'T STRIKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EVER!!! EVER!! Striking teachers are pathetic. Teachers are charged with educating and shaping our children. You can't do that walking the pavement.

[chancellor]

Frae - No post grad requirements, and teachers with Masters get significantly more. Work requirements include 6 credits/5 years.

And it's not scapegoating, it's simply reality. Pension commitments have states completely underwater; depending on whose estimates you believe, anywhere from 40 to 46 states have unfunded pension liabilities that range from significant to bankrupting. Combine that with the fact that the outgoing governor and legislature - which was wholly Dem, BTW - left the present administration with an over $1.5 BN deficit that must be balanced in this budget, and options were limited.

EDIT TO ADD: And if I see another friggin' thing about Dems and their cronies whining about "civility", I'll simply puke after the latest exhibitions in Wisconsin. We're up to four confirmed death threats, one bomb threat, and multiple signs with targets, bullets, and outright hopes for assassination.

[Erik]

Part of the problem is that state governments, unlike the federal government, are required to have balanced budgets. When there's a huge drop in revenue, as there has been in the past few years, they pretty much have to cut stuff. And since "unfunded pension liabilities" are a huge expense in most states, they have pretty much no choice but to at least take a hard look at them. Some governors have been very arrogant in the way they've gone about it, but the vast majority of them can't ignore it anymore.

[frae]

I firmly believe the teaching profession is underpaid and not as respected as it should be. I also think the bad teachers are too abundant and they help lead to the poor image of teachers that many people have.

My two suggestions for the teachers have always been:

1. WEED OUT THE BAD TEACHERS ALREADY!!

2. DON'T STRIKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EVER!!! EVER!! Striking teachers are pathetic. Teachers are charged with educating and shaping our children. You can't do that walking the pavement.

1. How do you weed out bad teachers? I teach in a building with I don't know 100 plus staff members. 1 principal and 2 assistant principals. There is a 4th administrator, head of guidance. These 4 are supposed to do the observing. I see the assistant principal assigned to me once or maybe twice a year. That leaves testing. If testing becomes the standard all the tenured teachers will for fear of losing their jobs take the assignments of teaching honors and AP kids. That leaves the least experienced teachers to deal with the toughest classes. So how do we judge them fairly?

2. Ok I personally have zero interest in striking. That said, if the district is being unreasonable in negotiations I don't see other alternatives. Working under the expired contract benefits the district. They are paying salaries from the previous year usually without the step raise. So they are in no hurry to settle as they are able to bank that money set aside for these salaries and can make the money in interest. So with no rush to negotiate sometimes I understand how a union would need to draw attention to that problem. My daughters district went 16 months without a contract. They didn't strike and good for them, but I can see why that could have been an option for them.

[Judge Jude]

Yeah, I find both sides kind of unreasonable in Wisconsin right now.

The key is clarifying what the actual benefits are for public employees.

In some states, the lifetime pensions and free health care for entire families and six-figure cashouts of unused vacation time and paid days off for Flag Day and St. Patrick's Day (and I'm Irish!) are preposterous.

In others, the compensation isn't that good overall and it's just an opportunistic ploy to union-bash.

I don't know anything about the Wisconsin situation, specifically, I'm sorry to say.

All unions will have to accept that deals they were promised were made in different economic times and often by financially-stupid pandering politicians. Private-sector workers doing stellar and important work have wage freezes, furloughs, layoffs, etc. Something has to give here, observes this son of a blue-collar worker.

It's messy in Wisconsin right now, but this debate has to be held.

[frae]

Frae - No post grad requirements, and teachers with Masters get significantly more. Work requirements include 6 credits/5 years.

And it's not scapegoating, it's simply reality. Pension commitments have states completely underwater; depending on whose estimates you believe, anywhere from 40 to 46 states have unfunded pension liabilities that range from significant to bankrupting. Combine that with the fact that the outgoing governor and legislature - which was wholly Dem, BTW - left the present administration with an over $1.5 BN deficit that must be balanced in this budget, and options were limited.

EDIT TO ADD: And if I see another friggin' thing about Dems and their cronies whining about "civility", I'll simply puke after the latest exhibitions in Wisconsin. We're up to four confirmed death threats, one bomb threat, and multiple signs with targets, bullets, and outright hopes for assassination.

Is this really the only option? I know that if my pension is taken away or seriously changed I don't know that I would have found teaching a viable option for me financially. The job pays a reasonable wage and again I am ok with my wage, but for 16 years my salary will increase a total of $20K. If you want good teachers to be attracted to the profession there needs to be a carrot. Right now that carrot is good health benefits and a pension. Without that you have don't have a lot of incentive to get into teaching.

[revo]

The problem with pensions is not with the teachers, police, firemen, or any other municipal gov't position that's essential. The problem is the civil service jobs that are NOT essential and have pensions attached -- your desk workers, highly-comped employees, overtime-junkies. That's where pension reform is needed. Teachers are essential and have critical skills -- but can't anyone hold a desk job at City Hall? Why am I paying for that guy's retirement??

[Lucky]

The problem with pensions is not with the teachers, police, firemen, or any other municipal gov't position that's essential. The problem is the civil service jobs that are NOT essential and have pensions attached -- your desk workers, highly-comped employees, overtime-junkies. That's where pension reform is needed. Teachers are essential and have critical skills -- but can't anyone hold a desk job at City Hall? Why am I paying for that guy's retirement??

No, not anyone can hold a desk job at City Hall. Cities which have good government have the best people available at all their positions. Plano, Texas is a decent example. When I was there, seven individuals working in the Parks department had PhD's in their particular fields.

Historically, the trade-off with public sector work is that you take less pay, but have better benefits. And Jude, this isn't a case where the benefits were based upon "promises"...these rights were obtained through bargained contracts. Surely you're not taking the position that an employer can freely say "Oops, we planned badly...you don't get your contractually mandated benefits."

Chance, you may as well get your finger ready to go down your throat...civility is still properly an issue in Washington regardless of what these protesters in Wisconsin may have done. That doesn't take Republican leaders in Congress off the hook.

What the majority of people are missing (or just ignoring) is that this is not really about economics. Instead, this is an effort by the GOP to weaken or eliminate something they have hated for a long, long time...unions in which the membership is comprised principally of governmental employees. Why? It is simple. They tend to support Democratic candidates through contributions, campaigning and voting. And that just sticks in the craw of the GOP.

Lastly, it is just ridiculous to say that schoolteachers should have employment terms dictated to them and not be able to strike if those terms are fundamentally unfair. A strike should be a last resort, but in many situations, it is the only meaningful action the employees can take to defend themselves. Failure to recognize this, in my opinion, indicates a lack of familiarity with the history of labor in the U.S., or at least a willingness to disregard that history.

[Moonlight J]

Take Florida as to what can happen....

No union to speak of down here. Teacher pay is already in the bottom 20% and after going 4 years without a raise in most counties here, our new Governor is now requiring teachers to pay 5% of their own pensions which essentially serves as a paycut after four years of no raises.....and there isn't a damn thing the teachers can do here. It is a right to work state so if they strike, they'll throw someone else in the classroom and tell you to leave.

[frae]

Take Florida as to what can happen....

No union to speak of down here. Teacher pay is already in the bottom 20% and after going 4 years without a raise in most counties here, our new Governor is now requiring teachers to pay 5% of their own pensions which essentially serves as a paycut after four years of no raises.....and there isn't a damn thing the teachers can do here. It is a right to work state so if they strike, they'll throw someone else in the classroom and tell you to leave.

This is exactly what I fear happening. If the unions ability to negotiate a fair contract is taken away there is nothing to prevent the states from simply taking whatever they need from the teachers and other union workers to fix their budget problems.

Anyway off to work, I will get back into this in evening.

[Mithrandir]

No, not anyone can hold a desk job at City Hall. Cities which have good government have the best people available at all their positions. Plano, Texas is a decent example. When I was there, seven individuals working in the Parks department had PhD's in their particular fields.

Historically, the trade-off with public sector work is that you take less pay, but have better benefits. And Jude, this isn't a case where the benefits were based upon "promises"...these rights were obtained through bargained contracts. Surely you're not taking the position that an employer can freely say "Oops, we planned badly...you don't get your contractually mandated benefits."

Chance, you may as well get your finger ready to go down your throat...civility is still properly an issue in Washington regardless of what these protesters in Wisconsin may have done. That doesn't take Republican leaders in Congress off the hook.

What the majority of people are missing (or just ignoring) is that this is not really about economics. Instead, this is an effort by the GOP to weaken or eliminate something they have hated for a long, long time...unions in which the membership is comprised principally of governmental employees. Why? It is simple. They tend to support Democratic candidates through contributions, campaigning and voting. And that just sticks in the craw of the GOP.

Lastly, it is just ridiculous to say that schoolteachers should have employment terms dictated to them and not be able to strike if those terms are fundamentally unfair. A strike should be a last resort, but in many situations, it is the only meaningful action the employees can take to defend themselves. Failure to recognize this, in my opinion, indicates a lack of familiarity with the history of labor in the U.S., or at least a willingness to disregard that history.

I am quite familiar with the history of labor in the US and I certainly understand the necessity of the ability to strike. I just think the teaching profession is too important to go on strike. I also don't understand why so many people are opposed to paying higher taxes if it means having the ability to hire better teachers, have betters programs, etc. Like I said the general public seems, for the most part, unwilling to recognize how important teachers and compensate them properly.

[Mithrandir]

[QUOTE=frae;5871]1. How do you weed out bad teachers? I teach in a building with I don't know 100 plus staff members. 1 principal and 2 assistant principals. There is a 4th administrator, head of guidance. These 4 are supposed to do the observing. I see the assistant principal assigned to me once or maybe twice a year. That leaves testing. If testing becomes the standard all the tenured teachers will for fear of losing their jobs take the assignments of teaching honors and AP kids. That leaves the least experienced teachers to deal with the toughest classes. So how do we judge them fairly?

The million dollar question. I know there have been long discussions on this site about this topic and there isn't a quick fix. But something needs to be done.

[Mithrandir]

Is this really the only option? I know that if my pension is taken away or seriously changed I don't know that I would have found teaching a viable option for me financially. The job pays a reasonable wage and again I am ok with my wage, but for 16 years my salary will increase a total of $20K. If you want good teachers to be attracted to the profession there needs to be a carrot. Right now that carrot is good health benefits and a pension. Without that you have don't have a lot of incentive to get into teaching.

The incentive to go into teaching is the fact that you will be responsible for educating children and laying a foundation for those kids to use to go on to become successful individuals. Teaching is truly a noble profession and if that isn't incentive enough then maybe one shouldn't teach.

I wanted to become a public librarian because I always thought the public library is one of essential institutions in this country. I certainly knew my salary would never be that high working in a library (at least in SW Pa) but I chose that profession because I wanted to help make a difference in my community by having a job that provides lifelong educational opportunities for everyone.

Unfortunately educational jobs seem to be among the least important in the minds of the general public. Sure people provide lip-service and say how important teachers are, but when it comes to putting mopney where their mouth is....

[Judge Jude]

"Surely you're not taking the position that an employer can freely say "Oops, we planned badly...you don't get your contractually mandated benefits." "

Many states cannot possibly pay the contractually mandated benefits without going bankrupt. If they raised taxes high enough to supposedly raise the required dollars, so many people would move away that the revenue wouldn't be there after all. People who are getting laid off, furloughs and pay cuts are not going to be willing to say, "Oh well, we struck a bad deal, so we have to pay higher taxes to keep giving raises to public sector employees while we go backwards."

Again, I am not happy with either side of the Wisconsin equation. But if unions try to maintain every inch of their contractually mandated benefits, they are doomed. It's a simple matter of numbers. I hope that common sense wins out all around.