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Who wants to take a stab at explaining health care reform?

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  • Who wants to take a stab at explaining health care reform?

    This mandate has mystified me from day one, on the notion that if the federal government can compel you to buy health insurance, what CAN'T it make you do? still haven't seen the counterargument that stops that in its tracks.

    I know why it's essential to make the plan work - I'm not exactly a Tea Party kind of guy, heh - but there's an "end justifies the means" angle here that's a bit troubling. You wind up with Obama vehemently scolding critics who call it a "tax" while his Attorney General calls it a tax in court.



    "In ruling against President Obama‘s health care law, federal Judge Roger Vinson used Mr. Obama‘s own position from the 2008 campaign against him, arguing that there are other ways to tackle health care short of requiring every American to purchase insurance.

    “I note that in 2008, then-Senator Obama supported a health care reform proposal that did not include an individual mandate because he was at that time strongly opposed to the idea, stating that ‘if a mandate was the solution, we can try that to solve homelessness by mandating everybody to buy a house,’” Judge Vinson wrote in a footnote toward the end of the 78-page ruling Monday."

    .............

    for those who prefer a Washington Post version....

    A federal judge in Florida on Monday became the first to strike down the entire law to overhaul the nation's health-care system, potentially complicating implementation of the statute in the 26 states that brought the suit.



    (oh, and if someone starts a "Who wants to take a stab at Sarah Palin" thread, I expect tracymorgan to chime in quickly, lol)
    Last edited by Judge Jude; 01-31-2011, 07:46 PM.
    finished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
    own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
    won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84

    SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
    RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
    C Stallings 2, Casali 1
    1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
    OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1

  • #2
    right now every tax payer is paying for healthcare for everyone else, and at the most expensive rate possible, through 911 and emergency room visits. You've got to have car insurance if you want to drive, this is no different
    "You know what's wrong with America? If I lovingly tongue a woman's nipple in a movie, it gets an "NC-17" rating, if I chop it off with a machete, it's an "R". That's what's wrong with America, man...."--Dennis Hopper

    "One should judge a man mainly from his depravities. Virtues can be faked. Depravities are real." -- Klaus Kinski

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Fresno Bob View Post
      right now every tax payer is paying for healthcare for everyone else, and at the most expensive rate possible, through 911 and emergency room visits. You've got to have car insurance if you want to drive, this is no different
      Very different. Not driving is an option. Not breathing is not an option. My car is a threat to others. My health is not a threat to others. Parallels are few.

      J
      Ad Astra per Aspera

      Oh. In that case, never mind. - Wonderboy

      GITH fails logic 101. - bryanbutler

      Bah...OJH caught me. - Pogues

      I don't know if you guys are being willfully ignorant, but... - Judge Jude

      Comment


      • #4
        "You've got to have car insurance if you want to drive, this is no different"

        This has been thoroughly debunked repeatedly. Hell, my older brother was over 40 before he ever paid for car insurance - because he lived in a city and never got a driver's license. He chose to pay for the insurance when he chose to drive.

        The cost of paying for health care via emergency room visits of uninsured people is significant, though exaggerated to some extent by backers of this bill. But even if that cost was utterly crippling the nation's finances (it's not), it still doesn't mean we suspend the Constitution to pay for it.

        I sympathize with health care reformers. I get it. But it has to be done properly.

        Liberals and conservatives alike should fear any vast increase in the extent of federal government power. I know I do. I don't trust either group enough, thanks.
        finished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
        own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
        won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84

        SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
        RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
        C Stallings 2, Casali 1
        1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
        OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1

        Comment


        • #5
          It's a testimony to the cheapness of some in this administration that anonymous members would disparage a Article III judge the way they have.

          I love the fact that Judge Vinson hoisted Congress and the administration on their own petard - the administration vis a vis severability, and Congress on having severability in the law...and then writing it out.
          I'm just here for the baseball.

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't like the mandatory requirement for insurance either, I'd much rather have seen a single payer option ala medicare, but this Judge has gone a bit too far declaring the entire law unconstitutional. If he thinks the requirement is the issue, sever that part of the bill and leave the rest intact, which is what usually is done in these cases. While I agree with him in his opposition to this particular part of the law, I think he's stepped out of being a judge and into being a politician. I mean if he really believed the entire Law was crap, he'd have issued an injunction to prevent it from being implemented which he didn't.
            If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

            Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
            Martin Luther King, Jr.

            Comment


            • #7
              Well, iirc the Obama brief stressed repeatedly how critical the mandate was for the success of the overall bill.

              So the administration's case somewhat prevented the judge from limiting the ruling, although to some extent he did so anyway.

              I need to read up on legal eagles here, but at first blush it doesn't seem like the judge tried for the all-time slam dunk.
              finished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
              own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
              won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84

              SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
              RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
              C Stallings 2, Casali 1
              1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
              OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1

              Comment


              • #8
                What do you see as the fundamental difference between mandatory health care and things like Social Security, disability insurance, and Medicare? We are all compelled to pay for the last three. One could view those as paying for mandatory health care once we get past 65 years of age. Now, they are just moving the age younger.

                I know Social Security and Medicare are considered taxes, while for political reasons, the Health Care mandate was not called a tax. But if they changed it to a tax, then would it be constitutional? Or, could Social Security and Medicare also be considered unconstitutional?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Obama did not want the mandatory option included. He acquiesced (as he does seemingly all the time) to get the bill passed and then of course is gonna spin it positive, like he did with the tax cuts. This is the part of him that kills me. Take a stand and hold your ground, but he doesn't. he's gonna compromise if that is what it take, even if it means watered down results.

                  I'm not a judicial expert either, but it's clear to see this Judge wanted to kick this up to the Supreme Court asap. It still won't be ruled on till after the 2012 election, but it should make for good debate fodder during the elections.
                  If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

                  Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
                  Martin Luther King, Jr.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I was listening about that very thing tonight-- No, if they made it like Medicare, it cannot be considered unconstitutional, but then they could attack it for being not only another tax, but further expansion of a system controlled by the federal Govt.
                    If I whisper my wicked marching orders into the ether with no regard to where or how they may bear fruit, I am blameless should a broken spirit carry those orders out upon the innocent, for it was not my hand that took the action merely my lips which let slip their darkest wish. ~Daniel Devereaux 2011

                    Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
                    Martin Luther King, Jr.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by OaklandA's View Post
                      What do you see as the fundamental difference between mandatory health care and things like Social Security, disability insurance, and Medicare? We are all compelled to pay for the last three. One could view those as paying for mandatory health care once we get past 65 years of age. Now, they are just moving the age younger.

                      I know Social Security and Medicare are considered taxes, while for political reasons, the Health Care mandate was not called a tax. But if they changed it to a tax, then would it be constitutional? Or, could Social Security and Medicare also be considered unconstitutional?
                      Had they called it a tax, they hand the 2012 elections to the GOP as Bush I did when he promised not to raise taxes, but did so. Raising taxes in the midst of the economic client this past spring would have been a complete vote killer.

                      Personally, I think they did it like this hoping for the fight and that by the time they had to go to court, they'd just call it a tax as the economy would be recovered. After all, it's what they put in the motion for this very case in FL that was being judged by this Reagan appointee who was going to rule the case this way anyhow.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by OaklandA's View Post
                        What do you see as the fundamental difference between mandatory health care and things like Social Security, disability insurance, and Medicare? We are all compelled to pay for the last three. One could view those as paying for mandatory health care once we get past 65 years of age. Now, they are just moving the age younger.

                        I know Social Security and Medicare are considered taxes, while for political reasons, the Health Care mandate was not called a tax. But if they changed it to a tax, then would it be constitutional? Or, could Social Security and Medicare also be considered unconstitutional?
                        You make a good case for repealing Social Security.

                        However, the two are not truly parallel. SS tax is paid only from earnings, rather than in spite of them.

                        The more I consider the car insurance argument, the more insulted I get. No states requires that you insure yourself. For the argument to work, you must equate the willingness to endure harm with the willingness to cause harm.

                        J
                        Ad Astra per Aspera

                        Oh. In that case, never mind. - Wonderboy

                        GITH fails logic 101. - bryanbutler

                        Bah...OJH caught me. - Pogues

                        I don't know if you guys are being willfully ignorant, but... - Judge Jude

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by onejayhawk View Post
                          The more I consider the car insurance argument, the more insulted I get. No states requires that you insure yourself. For the argument to work, you must equate the willingness to endure harm with the willingness to cause harm.
                          The problem is - will the people who want the freedom to not have medical insurance agree not to use hospitals in case of an emergency? Of course not. We live in a humane society where that would not be tolerated. So how can you get people to pay for something that they know they will get for free if they really need it?

                          Also, society as a whole needs to prevent the spread of diseases like small pox, measles, etc. If more people lack access to health care, that will also lead to a huge cost to society.

                          The only solution to those two problems is for everyone to have medical coverage.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            what else is the "only solution," though?

                            someone has to tell me where the bright red line is that the federal government can't cross.
                            finished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
                            own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
                            won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84

                            SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
                            RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
                            C Stallings 2, Casali 1
                            1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
                            OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think it was a bad decision from a constitutional perspective, setting aside the politics. His assertion that individuals without health insurance have "absolutely no impact on interstate commerce" is just plain false, as it is wholly foreseeable that they will get sick or injured and need emergency medical care, the costs for which will be shifted to other providers, policy holders, and taxpayers at an interstate level. I'm actually more sympathetic to his ruling on the severability issue, but the severability issue only comes into play because he blew the call on the Commerce Clause.

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