Israel........ Our alliance DISCUSS

[baldgriff]

Im sick and waiting to go to the doctor...

Hoping that when I get home there may be some interesting discussion and thoughts.

[revo]

Obviously both countries need each other very much, but IMO Bibi has done more to undermine this administration more than any other Israeli leader ever. Say what you will about the US abstention, but this was all Bibi's doing. Israel can't continue to be hard right and just negotiate with one of our political parties. The Obama/Bibi relationship died when he went behind Obama's back to negotiate directly with Boehner.

I'm a staunch supporter of Israel, but very much in favor of a two-state compromise. I don't care for Bibi or his right wing leadership.

Trump will find how dangerous it will be to be a right wing supporter of Israel. If they move the embassy to Jerusalem like he wants, it will most certainly lead to more bloodshed. And for what?

[nots]

Obama not vetoing the UN resolution is a stain on his Presidency and has been rightfully denounced by both Republicans and Democrats. A petulant move in response to Bibi's own back handed move.
The last 6 months of Obamas term have been disappointing to say the least--nothing at all like the first 90 months. Lot of pettiness

[GwynnInTheHall]

Obama not vetoing the UN resolution is a stain on his Presidency and has been rightfully denounced by both Republicans and Democrats. A petulant move in response to Bibi's own back handed move.
The last 6 months of Obamas term have been disappointing to say the least--nothing at all like the first 90 months. Lot of pettiness

Though I agree Obama has had his disappointing moments as of late, I don;t see this as one of them.

I've long held the belief that Bibi is bad for business, worldwide. His hard right tactics are going to backfire, especially if Trump ups the ante by adding another Hawk to the game. Expect an escalation of attacks on israel and if any of Trumps rhetoric is carried out, full scale military involvement and a total breakdown of the middle east as it's instability could easily unhinge of the moderates in the region see the US as an enemy due o it's support ot Israel.

They should have stopped the settlements years ago.

I can't see this ending well at all.

[nots]

Though I agree Obama has had his disappointing moments as of late, I don;t see this as one of them.

I've long held the belief that Bibi is bad for business, worldwide. His hard right tactics are going to backfire, especially if Trump ups the ante by adding another Hawk to the game. Expect an escalation of attacks on israel and if any of Trumps rhetoric is carried out, full scale military involvement and a total breakdown of the middle east as it's instability could easily unhinge of the moderates in the region see the US as an enemy due o it's support ot Israel.

They should have stopped the settlements years ago.

I can't see this ending well at all.

Ok, but why did we veto essentially the same resolution just a year or so ago?

[GwynnInTheHall]

Ok, but why did we veto essentially the same resolution just a year or so ago?

I believe Obama is doing now what he should have done then. He's been far too passive during his 8 years when it comes to pretty much everything. Too moderate, centrists for my tastes.

This, from my perspective, is what he should have been doing all along.

[nots]

I believe Obama is doing now what he should have done then. He's been far too passive during his 8 years when it comes to pretty much everything. Too moderate, centrists for my tastes.

This, from my perspective, is what he should have been doing all along.

Fair enough, but even that reasoning highlights my problem with his fungible Middle East policy. Syria, Libya, red lines and now a pretty sharp reversal on Isreal in his last month in office. Seems like there really isn't a plan, which gives credence that this is a move out of petulance and not a fundamental change in policy.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Fair enough, but even that reasoning highlights my problem with his fungible Middle East policy. Syria, Libya, red lines and now a pretty sharp reversal on Isreal in his last month in office. Seems like there really isn't a plan, which gives credence that this is a move out of petulance and not a fundamental change in policy.

I agree.

[B-Fly]

Trump will find how dangerous it will be to be a right wing supporter of Israel. If they move the embassy to Jerusalem like he wants, it will most certainly lead to more bloodshed. And for what?

*ding ding ding*

How does it help us or Israel to troll not just the Palestinians and the Arab World but the rest of Israel's potential allies as well? What damage was the continued status quo presence of every foreign embassy in Tel Aviv causing Israel? Why would Israel ever want the provocation or responsibility of governing East Jerusalem and its people in perpetuity, anyway?

[Hornsby]

58 Palestinians killed and more than 2000 injured as the US and Israel "celebrate" the opening of the US Embassy in Jerusalem...There was no point in this ever happening, other than to satisfy the hawks both here and in Israel.

Oh yeah, and THIS guy delivers a blessing at the opening: Pastor Robert Jeffress, leader of a Dallas-area Baptist church and a spiritual adviser to President Donald Trump, is slated to deliver a blessing on Monday at the opening of the relocated embassy.

Jeffress has drawn criticism for calling Islam and Mormonism "a heresy from the pit of hell" and saying Jews "can't be saved".

Seems just like the type of guy to give spiritual advice...

[chancellor]

How does it help us or Israel to troll not just the Palestinians and the Arab World but the rest of Israel's potential allies as well?

Actually, the "rest of the Arab World" has been surprisingly favorable. In fact, I'd say Saudi Arabia's response was, essentially, "Hey, Palestinians, get off your bums and get back to the negotiation table".

Since Oslo in 1993, Israel has allowed a Palestinian government in Ramallah, made three peace offers within internationally-accepted parameters, withdrawn from Gaza and parts of Samaria, suffered an intifadah, and in return has received absolutely nothing. There's an Arabic proverb that translates to "Patience moves mountains", and there's no doubt the Palestinians have attempted to play the long game in order to get everything they want - AND not recognize Israel's right to exist.

Why would Israel ever want the provocation or responsibility of governing East Jerusalem and its people in perpetuity, anyway?

East Jerusalem is easy, c'mon. Jerusalem is the historical center of the Jewish homeland. Even David Ben-Gurion in his published writings expressed a longing for all of Jerusalem to belong to Israel. And given Arab governing of bordering countries, I'd argue Israel would do a lot better than any Arab country in governing East Jerusalem, too.

[chancellor]

Oh yeah, and THIS guy delivers a blessing at the opening: Pastor Robert Jeffress, leader of a Dallas-area Baptist church and a spiritual adviser to President Donald Trump, is slated to deliver a blessing on Monday at the opening of the relocated embassy.

Jeffress has drawn criticism for calling Islam and Mormonism "a heresy from the pit of hell" and saying Jews "can't be saved".

Seems just like the type of guy to give spiritual advice...

I should resist...but can't.

According to standard Christian doctrine - Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant - Mormonism is certainly heretical, and Islam, depending on how fine you want to cut words, is either heretical or apostasy. Heresy is simply defined as "belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine". I'll also note for the record that in the US and Israel, apostates are not jailed or punished or killed, unlike a significant portion of the Arab-Islamic world.

As for the "pit of hell" part, if you believe that a heretical belief separates an individual from salvation, well, it's pretty logical to conclude the belief set certainly wasn't heaven sent, no? As even the atheist Penn Jillette noted:

"If you believe that there’s a heaven and a hell, and people could be going to hell or not getting eternal life, and you think that it’s not really worth telling them this because it would make it socially awkward—and atheists who think people shouldn’t proselytize and who say just leave me along and keep your religion to yourself—how much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize? How much do you have to hate somebody to believe everlasting life is possible and not tell them that?"

As for "Jews "can't be saved", that's an inaccurate rendering of his quote. In fact, Jeffress makes it clear that anyone can be saved by faith in Christ. His point is the religious beliefs of Judaism no longer lead to salvation. Again, this is a not-uncommon belief set in Orthodox or many Protestant faiths. Catholicism is muddled in this area. Some evangelicals (including me) believe that Romans 2 is rather explicit that those who live by the Law will be judged by the Law, while those who live by faith are judged by the parameters of faith.

Had you picked on Rev. Hagee, I'd probably have agreed with much more.

[Hornsby]

I should resist...but can't.

According to standard Christian doctrine - Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant - Mormonism is certainly heretical, and Islam, depending on how fine you want to cut words, is either heretical or apostasy. Heresy is simply defined as "belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine". I'll also note for the record that in the US and Israel, apostates are not jailed or punished or killed, unlike a significant portion of the Arab-Islamic world.

As for the "pit of hell" part, if you believe that a heretical belief separates an individual from salvation, well, it's pretty logical to conclude the belief set certainly wasn't heaven sent, no? As even the atheist Penn Jillette noted:

"If you believe that there’s a heaven and a hell, and people could be going to hell or not getting eternal life, and you think that it’s not really worth telling them this because it would make it socially awkward—and atheists who think people shouldn’t proselytize and who say just leave me along and keep your religion to yourself—how much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize? How much do you have to hate somebody to believe everlasting life is possible and not tell them that?"

As for "Jews "can't be saved", that's an inaccurate rendering of his quote. In fact, Jeffress makes it clear that anyone can be saved by faith in Christ. His point is the religious beliefs of Judaism no longer lead to salvation. Again, this is a not-uncommon belief set in Orthodox or many Protestant faiths. Catholicism is muddled in this area. Some evangelicals (including me) believe that Romans 2 is rather explicit that those who live by the Law will be judged by the Law, while those who live by faith are judged by the parameters of faith.

Had you picked on Rev. Hagee, I'd probably have agreed with much more.

Sorry Chance...I'll argue politics, but not religion. It's not just a slippery slope, it's totally unstable...little factual evidence, and a whole lot of beliefs. Politics are much more fun...

[chancellor]

Sorry Chance...I'll argue politics, but not religion. It's not just a slippery slope, it's totally unstable...little factual evidence, and a whole lot of beliefs. Politics are much more fun...

Works for me.

[revo]

Chance, I just read an article online that made some sense. It said that for Rapture Evangelicals, they needed Jerusalem returned to the Jews for that to happen, and that is why Trump was so gung-ho to move the Embassy. Does that make sense to you?