Marriage and Fidelity.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Upon reading so many posts regarding Kim Davis and her 4 marriages and Tiger and his cheating ways I thought this might me an interesting topic to discuss. It is of particular interest to me as I'm getting married in the near future and my thoughts on monogamy/marriage have changed a bit.

So, is marriage a social contract between 2 people or a covenant before God?

Is monogamy man's natural state?

What exactly constitutes infidelity?

Why are institutions like strip clubs, prostitution, the porn industry, Ashely Madison and they hyper sexualization of pretty much everything so in demand and successful?

Why is it easy for so few men to remain faithful and pretty much out of the question for others?

Thoughts?

[Pogues]

So, is marriage a social contract between 2 people or a covenant before God?

Well, since I don't believe in gods, I'll go with the latter. Religion wasn't really a part of our ceremony.

What exactly constitutes infidelity?

I think it's obvious, and it you attempt a waffling answer, you're just trying to justify your own actions.

Why is it easy for so few men to remain faithful and pretty much out of the question for others?

Is it really "so few men"? I'll go with...because most men are scum.

[Lucky]

So, is marriage a social contract between 2 people or a covenant before God?

Well, since I don't believe in gods, I'll go with the latter. Religion wasn't really a part of our ceremony.

What exactly constitutes infidelity?

I think it's obvious, and it you attempt a waffling answer, you're just trying to justify your own actions.

Why is it easy for so few men to remain faithful and pretty much out of the question for others?

Is it really "so few men"? I'll go with...because most men are scum.

I'm not sure it is so obvious. For many people, probably most, actual sex is required for infidelity to have occurred. For other people, infidelity can include things like "internet relationships" of a private and emotional nature. The test is sometimes stated as "if you wouldn't want your spouse to read it, its cheating". This is a pretty strict standard, obviously. But it would include taking out a co-worker to whom you were attracted 'just for a drink or two', even if nothing else happened. Jimmy Carter described this type of infidelity back in the 70s as lusting in one's heart.

As for strip clubs, prostitution, etc., they have been around forever. Don't they call prostitution the oldest profession? It gets advertised a lot more now, though.

[chancellor]

So, is marriage a social contract between 2 people or a covenant before God? For people of faith, it's clearly both. For people who are non-believers, it's clearly the former. I think the two need to be separate, and have for a long time.

Is monogamy man's natural state? Yes. Again, this is a statement of faith mine as a Christian. However, many other faiths hold to the same belief.

What exactly constitutes infidelity? If I'm understanding Lucky correctly, I agree with him. Infidelity is engaging in a sexual relationship with someone other than your spouse. Again, in the Christian faith, it's a sin to lust after another's wife (or girlfriend, or fiancee, or boyfriend and so on), but it's not equivalent. While this is often misinterpreted, Matthew 19:9 definitely speaks to the act of sex outside marriage.

Why are institutions like strip clubs, prostitution, the porn industry, Ashely Madison and they hyper sexualization of pretty much everything so in demand and successful? Again, as Lucky notes, they've been successful for as long as history.

Why is it easy for so few men to remain faithful and pretty much out of the question for others? Depends on how you define "so few men".

Thoughts?

[fuhrdog]

As Chris Rock once said...a man is as faithful as his options

[GwynnInTheHall]

As Chris Rock once said...a man is as faithful as his options

Do the rest of you believe this?

[swampdragon]

Do the rest of you believe this?

nope!

[Long John]

Why not...

So, is marriage a social contract between 2 people or a covenant before God?
It is both. You can certainly engage in a social contract and most times that contract is legally binding for certain rights of both participating parties. A "covenant before God" requires nothing in writing and is more about a pledge to the person you are marrying. I use quotes because belief in God is not required to participate. It can be a pledge that you are morally bound to honor. My belief in a higher power is still under investigation, but I can enter a contract of marriage without restrictions because I promise certain moral guidelines that I intend to adhere to.

Is monogamy man's natural state?
No, but that's really part of the challenge. From a natural instinct perspective, a person's natural state is to seek out those they are attracted to. Marriage demands sacrifice and control in order to manage your instincts in the recognition of a long-term greater good.

What exactly constitutes infidelity?
Executing on your instincts. For each person, this is different. I don't consider looking or lusting infidelity. I can think about killing somebody, but it doesn't mean I've killed them or that I will ever actually take steps to perform that act. IMO, looking and/or lusting is a necessary component of managing your fidelity.

Why are institutions like strip clubs, prostitution, the porn industry, Ashely Madison and they hyper sexualization of pretty much everything so in demand and successful?
Because some men are better at managing their instincts than others.

Why is it easy for so few men to remain faithful and pretty much out of the question for others?
see previous answer

[Lucky]

Do the rest of you believe this?

No.

And I also see the presence of options used as an excuse by a lot of guys, when the truth is that there are always options, even if you are an old, balding, overweight dude. The fact is that if you are employed, heterosexual, non-abusive, not a drug addict, and not totally repulsive in appearance, there is a market out there for you. The trick is to avoid it.

What do I mean by that? Instead of stopping by a bar on the way home from work, go straight home. Don't make plans to meet with your old buddy and his two "friends". Stay away from that girl at work who has been too friendly lately. I'm no longer hunting a mate. So I comport myself as I would expect Alice to under the circumstances. The very thought of that will throw a little cold water on the situation.

I had a buddy who, up until his divorce, was a serial cheater. I used to talk to him about it, but to no avail. Our falling out was when he used me as a false alibi. But he always tried to tell me that it wasn't his fault, that women just seemed to seek him out. What I observed was that he was always hanging out where those women were.

I'm not preaching, this is just what I have observed over the last 40 years.

[Gregg]

So, is marriage a social contract between 2 people or a covenant before God?

Wouldn't it be great if we loved each other so much that the thought of hurting one another or leaving would not need a covenant or a contract? That we would be so committed to doing what produces long and happy marriages that the mere suggestion of quitting is preposterous.

I do believe that marriage is both a social contract and a covenant before God. Unfortunately these days if anyone wants a divorce the contract and in many cases the covenant does not mean much as far as divorce prevention. That said Christian couples with a strong commitment to Jesus (active in their churches) are 31-35% less likely to get divorced. The statistics that claim 50% or more Christians are divorcing are taking into account all who claim Christianity. The couples that step into a church once or twice a year (claiming Christianity) are actually more likely to divorce than non-Christians.

If everyone honored their contract or covenant, would we see couples actually working to fix the brokenness? If we knew we couldn't get out would we be more committed to making it happy?

Personally in this day of contracts meaning nothing, I have to confess that it would only serve to slow down the process (maybe cool down what made me angry) for me. It would not stop me from divorce if I thought I wanted one or could justify it.

Covenant with God is a much different story. I believe that God loves us and loves marriage. If two people start going towards divorce and decide to invite God in to honor the covenant as well as heal up the marriage he will do so. Of course we have free will and it will take both parties to actually pray for restitution. My wife and I have been the beneficiaries of this and we have seen many people come to a healthier and happier marriage. We are madly in love with each other, are best friends, and will be celebrating 27 years this Oct. We love the Lord and thank the Father for this great gift of marriage.

[Gregg]

Yes, because it's really close to being a stone cold fact, anecdotes aside. The probability that at least one party will cheat during the course of a relationship is somewhere between 40-76%.

In nearly every society there is significant stigma associated with infidelity, yet rates of cheating are very, very high. This despite the fact that marriages will theoretically end from the cheating, despite the negative connotations society holds for cheating, despite all of the negative consequences. It follows, then, that cheating would be much higher if there were no consequences. Stranger, even, is that infidelity is not well correlated with unhappiness in a relationship. More than 50% of cheating men said they were happily married in a recent survey.

It all makes perfect sense, though, from an evolutionary ecology perspective: women can only reproduce, at the most, once every nine months or so. Men can reproduce as quickly as they can spread their seed. There is evolutionary motive for men to sleep with as many women as possible. (There is also evolutionary motive for women to attach themselves to those men who display the highest value and/or tendency to display characteristics associated with fatherhood, but it's a complicated topic.) Men, by virtue of their biology, inherently have less parental investment than do women. Given that low investment, men experience specific evolutionary pressure to stray outside their relationships. Similarly, women experience evolutionary pressure to couple with high value men. Chances are, fellas, if you've been cuckolded your woman thought that other guy she was boning was of higher quality stock than you. Sorry. Most evolutionary ecologists / anthropologists do not believe humans are either naturally monogamous or polygamous, but rather something that's close to "slightly polygamous" and that we have been moving away from our polygamous ancestors slowly over time.

Eh, as humans we are supposed to suppress many animal instincts. I am guessing that the animal kingdom does not lose much sleep over infidelity or a least not like humans do.

It is not ok to cheat on ones spouse no matter how many of our kind do it.

[GwynnInTheHall]

OK so let's toss in a few more thoughts.

Some cultures and religions practice Polygamy. It seems to be as successful as regular marriage.

Polyamory, which is more about the idea of 'loving' multiple partners rather than marriage to them.

Both are contrary to monogamy and the general accepted concept of fidelity. Thoughts?

Also is Marriage and Monogamy a social construct or innate?

[DMT]

Monogamy is clearly not innate, which is why so many people don't honor it after pledging to do so, despite so many negative consequences.

[Fresno Bob]

Do the rest of you believe this?

not one bit...and not the way all of you think

[Fresno Bob]

If marriage is a "covenant before God", God is not holding up his end a lot of the time.

Let me break from the "Fresno Bob" personna for a moment, I've never cheated on my wife, and my plan is to keep it that way, long ago she told me that if I was going to cheat on her, "do it overseas, and don't bring anything back". I've had tons of opportunities/options despite my ugly mug, yet I've still managed to keep it in my pants.

That being said, I don't consider getting some drinks with my hot co-workers cheating, watching porn isn't cheating, grinding on your buddies hot wife at the dance club isn't cheating (especially when he's watching!), going to a strip club isn't cheating, hell, even getting a lapdance isn't cheating.....once your dick comes out, that's where I draw the line. Is my line perfect or even logical? Maybe, maybe not, but it works for me.

My father cheated on my mother with a co-worker, one that tried to get me to bone her when I was an intern, and even 17 year old me could smell the crazy on her enough to say no. I lost a lot of respect for my father off that, even though I understood it. My mom had gained 100 lbs, my dad was a virgin when he got married, but still, not the smartest play on his part.