New ethical dilema

[GwynnInTheHall]

So my daughter is complete with her probation edicts with the exception of restitution and the length (Nov 9th) and has seemed to be the model of condition and reform. She and her sister been staying at their mothers exclusively for the past 2 months because there's not much room in our weekly rental and both Pam and I work 6pm to 2 am so there'd be no adult supervision. I have stated my adamant concern with the atmosphere of my Ex's being to lax, no accountability, the inmates run the asylum and the rest of those unflattering memes. And to date I maintain my concern.

Enter today, my daughter and I are getting our eyes checked for a new prescription. She finishes first and I go in to get mine taken care of and when I emerge, newly sighted..I'm told BOTH my daughters were caught shoplifting and are in the Asset Protection room. This stuns me as just yesterday i took them shopping and dropped a pretty penny and parted ways at the end of the day with a gift of 100 bucks apiece. They had money to pay for whatever they wanted or KNEW they could ask me to get it for them.

I talk the Walmart folks out of reporting my eldest, which is their policy for anyone over 16, citing her probation and they cut her a break and release her to me. My youngest who was an accessory got off as well.

I relay this infor to their mom who agrees they should both be grounded for the summer, BOTH stay with me for the next week and BOTH miss the planned vaca to Laughlin this weekend.

When I get to their house to grab their stuff the Ex has a friend Lying in wait who tears into me saying how dare I ruin their vacation and proceeds to speak or yell in every manner saying essentially, I have no say in my own children's discipline and blah blah b;ah. I call the cops, they say there's nothing they can do that regardless of our custody agreement, I can only go to court to have it enforced.

SOOOOOOOO, I make a decision, a hard one, but if my kids are lost to me because their mother teaches them they don;t have to listen, I'll risk losing them to do this.

I MUST teach my kids there are negative consequences to actions such as these. So, I have given their mother a choice. #1 Both girls miss the vacation, staying in town, not necessarily with me as punishment for their actions or #2 If they do go to Laughlin as planned, I will relay the Shoplifting incident to Schuyler's probation officer and await the consequences which could be dire (probation violation and all).

I know I run the risk of my bluff being called and my kids hating me, but I just can't sit by and let them live a life unaccountable, nor can I allow my Ex to have other people parenting my children. If I lose them I lose them for a while until they can understand why I made the choice I've had to make.

If i do nothing I've lost them already.

Any thoughts would be appreciated as I'm very involved personally and might not have explored every option available to me.

Thanks again.

[heyelander]

I'm not sure how you can take such a hard line on other people not parenting your kids and then both take jobs working 6pm-2am making it impossible for you all to parent them. Where are they supposed to stay in town during the vacation if it's not with you?

[GwynnInTheHall]

I'm not sure how you can take such a hard line on other people not parenting your kids and then both take jobs working 6pm-2am making it impossible for you all to parent them. Where are they supposed to stay in town during the vacation if it's not with you?

We have a nanny available whom we trust to be available if this was an issue once we are in our house. We could use her earlier than planned if ness. Not only that, I look at Parenting as much more than just 'being there' the girls mom is there all the time, she just doesn't provide guidance. She feeds, houses and clothes them, but among other things, gets high with the oldest (or did), allows them to drink at parties (recently) and allowed my daughter to drive the car without a licenced adult and even alone several times prior to the accident where she was--driving without a licensed adult and in doing so, well you know. At their house, the kids and their friends run the roost. NOW I have to deal with the ex's gal pal who thinks she can impose her two cents on every issue.

The bigger issue is that my eldest seems to not only have learned nothing from her initial accident, but has an frustrating lack of respect for the law. To be honest, she's gotten out of any serious repercussions for either incident. Even her community service was spent hanging out with puppies at the local pet adoption site.

My brother (a cop) thinks I should just turn it all over to the probation office regardless of what their mom does or not. I'm also considering that, just asking for some help from the probation officer, whom I like and seems to have a handle on difficult situations, in overriding the nonchalance of my Ex and the environment it creates.

[TranaGreg]

Dilemma is right word to use. I honestly don't know how I would respond.

You've already considered the consequences - that you might lose your relationship with them. If you do want to go this route you might want to tell your daughter in advance that this is what you are going to do, and why you are doing it; you might not have an opportunity to later.

re: your last thought, I suspect that even an informal conversation with the parole officer would obligate him/her to act on any information you provide.

[heyelander]

What did she say about the shoplifting?

[Cobain's Ghost]

What did she say about the shoplifting?

"they don't shoplift when they're with me."

[GwynnInTheHall]

What did she say about the shoplifting?

She didn't really have an answer outside of "Ï'm so bored"

RE: Cobain. I've said from the beginning, the 'now' of the situation was created over the past 3 years when I was living in San diego or that's how I see it. I may be too late to effect positive change, but I have to try. IF their mom is going to cock block my parenting choices, I might have to use the professionals at my disposal. Either way if I do nothing, I'm doing a greater disservice to my kids than if I force consequences on them. At least from my perspective.

[In the Corn]

GITH what was your relationship with the girls before going to San Diego, as well as, when you were there?

IMO, your sending some mixed messages regarding punishment. You had your daughter's back when she made the mis-step of the accident. You did everything you could to make sure there was as much leniency as you could ask from the court system. This is what a parent should do. Advocate for your child, helping them understand we make mistakes, but I am there for you to do what I can to lighten the sentence. The child see you advocatin, but still suffers the consequences of their actions.

With the shoplifting, by asking WalMart not to report this you are, IMO, telling your kids that we do what we can to white-wash everything. She might be thinking, "I can do this and dad will bail me out if I get caught." The risk is worth the reward in her eyes. Sometimes you have to let your kid hit the bottom and make sure they know you're still there even at the bottom before they connect the dots.

I don't know that grounding them from vacation is the right move, either. Seems that missing the vacation might not be the right punishment, but I'm not clear what you're saying about that. Is vacation with mom and gal pal? What's the relationship of the gal pal to mom? What influence/relationship (parenting) does Pam do with the girls?

Sorry you're having to deal with all this crap. I give you props for being present and taking charge.

I've had my struggles with my kids...I wasn't perfect, but none of us are. Keep fighting the good fight.

[swampdragon]

GITH what was your relationship with the girls before going to San Diego, as well as, when you were there?

With the shoplifting, by asking WalMart not to report this you are, IMO, telling your kids that we do what we can to white-wash everything. She might be thinking, "I can do this and dad will bail me out if I get caught." The risk is worth the reward in her eyes. Sometimes you have to let your kid hit the bottom and make sure they know you're still there even at the bottom before they connect the dots.
.

I think that his fear of not bailing her out was JAIL for real - and he like most parents is not comfortable with that - YET

[In the Corn]

I think that his fear of not bailing her out was JAIL for real - and he like most parents is not comfortable with that - YET

Oh, I get that. It seems that where she was going after the car incident. GITH did his best to keep her from that then. At some point you have to look at your kids and their behavior and say, "This is the consequence, and I can't get you out of it." A shoplifting offense is gonna be lighter, even with the probation than another accident.

[DMT]

Tough situation man, but your daughter needs to get it together and I would talk to the probation officer to work out a stiff sentence outside of incarceration. Say, another 100 hours of community service and this time not with puppies.

[Cobain's Ghost]

RE: Cobain. I've said from the beginning, the 'now' of the situation was created over the past 3 years when I was living in San diego or that's how I see it. I may be too late to effect positive change, but I have to try. IF their mom is going to cock block my parenting choices, I might have to use the professionals at my disposal. Either way if I do nothing, I'm doing a greater disservice to my kids than if I force consequences on them. At least from my perspective.

no offense intended, just making a crack about how divorced parents relate. although after re-reading heyelander's post, i think he was asking what your daughter said about the shoplifting, not her mom.

for reals, though, i'm sorry you're going through this, it's got to be awful to see your daughters struggle like this. it seems like the obvious answer is to challenge for custody, but if mom would resist, it's probably not worth fighting a long expensive fight that may or may not go your way.

would their mom freely give up custody if you offered to take over? hopefully she can see that they are not on a good path, maybe she would be willing to let you take the lead for awhile and see what you can do.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies and well wishes.

The ex, the girls mother, is a piece of work I've tried to deal with for almost 19 years now. She is who she is, a professional victim who thinks life sucks and so should everyone else's. She's the kind of parent who allows the children to dictate terms in the household. While I was in san diego for those 3 years, which was supposed to be with my kids, but they changed their mind once I'd settled, I called every day, visited twice a month and had them every long holiday plus a month in the summer. Prior to that they either lived with me or next door to me.

I have NO support from the Ex, her family or her friends. Outside of Pam and my Brother, I'm pretty much going it alone.

I spent time with my Oldest today, she still doesn't get it--she's like--"why are you messing up my life?" She doesn't see it's her choices that have done that AND, in my opinion, the permissive environment at her mother's which exacerbates it all.

This is also much more than just about my oldest, my youngest was involved and she's about to get off without even a wrist slap. I can't abide that. She can't start down the same road as her sister. I won't sit by and do nothing about it.

I doubt I could get sole custody, plus the oldest will be 17 this August so she can pretty much choose where to live.

They have my terms, the ball is in their court. I'll find out Monday if they've left for Vacation and then I'll do what i need to do.

Short of Jail Time or the Felony charge being on her record, I'm open to having the weight of the system come down on all of them, because this is not only just to inform them of the shoplifting, but of the environment in which my girls now live.

Our parenting plan states we each get the kids for 1 week on and off so I can impose whichever punishment on my youngest I see fit when she's there--I have something in mind if they go through with the vacation, she'll hate me, but she'll see the consequence of her actions face first.


I love them dearly, I'd do anything to protect them from harm, but I CANNOT enable their bad choices, i just can't.

And if I have been, I must stop.

[mjl]

I guess the obvious questions for me are:

When you arranged for her to get probation for the other thing, did she understand what the potential penalties are for violating probation? I mean, the first one sounded like some kind of "a bunch of kids are out causing trouble and my daughter was the least of it but she was driving so it's her fault" where this is just "I decided to steal some shit", so it's hard to say that this wasn't just her deciding to intentionally violate her probation. I'm not saying I'm enough of a hard-ass to do this to my own kid, but it does feel like it's reasonable to say "I got you out of trouble last time on the condition that you didn't do any more stupid stuff, and now you did, so deal with it."

also, her name is Schuyler?

[GwynnInTheHall]

I guess the obvious questions for me are:

When you arranged for her to get probation for the other thing, did she understand what the potential penalties are for violating probation? I mean, the first one sounded like some kind of "a bunch of kids are out causing trouble and my daughter was the least of it but she was driving so it's her fault" where this is just "I decided to steal some shit", so it's hard to say that this wasn't just her deciding to intentionally violate her probation. I'm not saying I'm enough of a hard-ass to do this to my own kid, but it does feel like it's reasonable to say "I got you out of trouble last time on the condition that you didn't do any more stupid stuff, and now you did, so deal with it."

also, her name is Schuyler?

Yes she decided to be an idiot and yes her name is
Schuyler.